Engage or not?

[bigmoneylewis]

A very good topic for discussion for sure . You have to ask yourself
why did you go through all the trouble of getting a CCW permit, buy a gun, holster , etc. Did you do this only for selfish reasons (are you part of the "me first" generation) Are you the kind of guy that would trample over women and children to rush to the exit in a crowded room that was on fire ? Are you the kind of guy that would crouch down in fear behind the Frito Lay potato chip display , and slowly wet your pants, as the 18 year old girl behind the counter of the local mapco hands over the $ 83 out of the register in her last moment on earth , to a career criminal who then blows her brains out , and strolls out the side door .
Will you look at yourself in the mirror the next morning as you shave and get ready to go to work and say to yourself " well , It ain't like I was a cop or anything , I had no obligation to defend anyone elses life "
If that's the way you would have handled the situation ..Well ..that makes you a piece of trash . A total looser .
As a MAN , you are obligated to protect those around you when they are in desperate need . If you have the means to do so , and decided to just not get involved , you are not worth the dirt you are standing on. Period . Would I risk my life for a total stranger? HELL YES !
Otherwise how in god's name could I ever look at myself in the mirror again . If you saw a girl being raped behind a dollar general at 10:30 at night would you just quietly step away and dial 911 so that the officers can try to look for the guy , and take down a report , or would you grab the nearest stick of wood and change the situation .
Maybe I am just too old fashioned , but it seems the world has evolved into a bunch of spinless cowards who only look out for their own well being . You don't need a badge to do the right thing .
The legality of the situation, and your own personal well being should
take a back seat when faced in one of these situations .

Lewis

 

[V0OBWxZS16]

You are NOT, however, entitled to do (b). PERIOD.
...
There are, in fact, a number of states in which the concept of "citizens arrest" is NOT recognized......and is actually illegal. That does happen to include North Carolina, the state in which I reside. May be legal in Colorado.....but it certainly is NOT legal everywhere.

"A number of states" and "PERIOD" are mutually exclusive. Please choose one.

As for myself, if that were to occur and any negligently fired shots from such a person come MY way, I will shoot the stupid b#^&#*d in self defense - and happily so.

Given the options of flee/take cover, assist the good guy in defending the victims, or assisting the bad guy(s) in murdering one or more victims you would choose option 3??? Wow!


I went back and counted only TWO people who brought up scenarios that could be interpreted as acting like a LEO (ordering the bad guy to drop his gun) and both were cautionary tales. I have no idea who you're ranting against.

 

[jframejoey]

OP, use lethal force to protect lives not property. ..... Unless youre way up in Stephens County....then its pew pew pew!

 

[Kronos]

Now there's an interesting question:what to do if the perp drops their weapon and gives up? I sure as hell ain't arresting them! always thought I'd tell them I'm calling the cops and they can stay and wait or scram.

 

[wsr]

" snip...



----------------------------------------------------------------------


" Seems like you got your feelings hurt a little bit, you made wrong assertions and people called you on it, learn from it and move on "



Not at all. My feelings are not in the least hurt, nor did I make "wrong assertions". The problem is, as it has always been, those who somehow think that they have been appointed, by mere virtue of being issued a CC permit, as some sort of half-@%%ed LEO. Those people, whomever they may be, are nearly as dangerous as the criminals they seek to apprehend. Not by reason of criminal intent, but by reason of stupidity and arrogance. Not everyone, however, understands the reasons WHY this is true, nor do the same people accept this as fact. A great pity.

Lets review some of your jewels of wisdom from post #35

Your authorization to use your carry weapon extends ONLY to situations in which YOU are DIRECTLY threatened with death or serious harm - NOT others, except in the case of your family (or certain others) in certain situations (such as defending the interior spaces of your home)

.

Embarrassingly wrong

Being a bystander in a store does NOT qualify - in ANY jurisdiction in this country - unless the perp acts in threat to you, directly. If he/she were to make overt threats with a deadly weapon to you, then light him up. If not, you would seriously risk prosecution.

again embarrassingly wrong

(There was just recently a case, exactly like this hypothetical scenario, in the news. Bystander in a store chases perp from the store, shoots at him as he is running away, chases him to his car, then shoots at the car as the guy is driving away. The bystander is in jail, charged with a number of serious crimes.)

utterly stupid comparison

I only hope that, if I am ever faced with a situation in which such a self-appointed hotrod attempts to play Marshal, he doesn't screw up and kill or wound mere bystanders, which is very likely to happen.

LOL...again you are the only one playing in this fantasy

As for myself, if that were to occur and any negligently fired shots from such a person come MY way, I will shoot the stupid b#^&#*d in self defense - and happily so.

Ummm your post on here indicate the opposite, you would be frozen in inaction trying to sort through all the silliness in your head

 

[OldeTSgt]

As I said I would act as my training and judgement leads me to believe to do what is necessary to protect myself and OTHERS.

Seems there are lots of former LEO's/military on this forum - generally speaking our we are trained, and pyschologically conditioned to run towards the sound of gunfire - you can not switch that off once you become a civillian - if you can your conditioned response is not trained enough. We were always conditioned to fire as we advanced (military) even in the law enforcement world when we were clearing or going to do CQB we were not trained to sit back and let someone else do it - even today (my wife can attest to this) when I hear the sound of gunfire that I am not expecting my reaction is to immediately go to my gun and assess what just happened. Now I am not saying I draw it every time - but my hand immediately goes to my gun to establish a shooting grip.

I have been a hunter/shooter all my life - my reactions are so fast sometimes my wife just shakes her head (my gun is out and firing before she even sometimes recognizes the target) like the last beaver I shot or the last deer.

Checking traps one day - the water was up and my trap was down - I grapped my chain and was bringing it up when the beaver came swimming up - I immediately drew and fired center of the beaver and killed it - "in the blink of an eye" - so I had two beaver to skin. The other beaver was drowned in my trap. 45 acp makes a big hole.

 

[The Big D]

Have told this story in other threads over the years but here it is, again.

About ten (10) years ago I was in my local beerroom watching college football on a pleasant Saturday afternoon. Two (2) knuckleheads repeatedly tried to provoke other patrons to the extent everyone was annoyed at their antics. They were not trying to pick a physical fight it seemed; they were just acting like idiots.

No bouncer(s) that afternoon but manager and bartender finally told them they're done and began escorting them to the door. At that point one kicked a hole in the glass at which time I stood up, joined the 'good guys', and told the misfits to get moving. By then we were on the sidewalk of a very busy roadway.

One of the punks said: 'Go get the gun.' I said: 'Don't have to go anywhere to get mine' as I proned them out. Soon thereafter the local county PD arrived and took charge. Of interest is that the county cops tossed their car...no gun(s.).

Some may have done nothing, but to those I say what WOULD you have done? Waited for them to come back with a gun? Hoped they were just kidding?

That said, I am as well prepared to deal with situations like this as most anyone, and my internal makeup simply demands I do so.

Some of your methods obviously vary..

Be safe.

 

[Rastoff]

...pyschologically conditioned to run towards the sound of gunfire - you can not switch that off once you become a civillian...

I hear you, but when you arrive at the source of the gun fire, who's the bad guy?

 

[Smoke]

[ame]https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=_TEke2EHPAQ[/ame]

 

[shinbone]

The testosterone flows freely in this thread.

 

[Muss Muggins]

Have told this story in other threads over the years but here it is, again.

About ten (10) years ago I was in my local beerroom watching college football on a pleasant Saturday afternoon. Two (2) knuckleheads repeatedly tried to provoke other patrons to the extent everyone was annoyed at their antics. They were not trying to pick a physical fight it seemed; they were just acting like idiots.

No bouncer(s) that afternoon but manager and bartender finally told them they're done and began escorting them to the door. At that point one kicked a hole in the glass at which time I stood up, joined the 'good guys', and told the misfits to get moving. By then we were on the sidewalk of a very busy roadway.

One of the punks said: 'Go get the gun.' I said: 'Don't have to go anywhere to get mine' as I proned them out. Soon thereafter the local county PD arrived and took charge. Of interest is that the county cops tossed their car...no gun(s.).

Some may have done nothing, but to those I say what WOULD you have done? Waited for them to come back with a gun? Hoped they were just kidding?

That said, I am as well prepared to deal with situations like this as most anyone, and my internal makeup simply demands I do so.

Some of your methods obviously vary..

Be safe.

So, if I'm clear on this, you pointed a gun at a couple of drunks, then detained them at gunpoint, after they broke a window (not yours), and mentioned a gun, and you admit they weren't trying to pick a fight, but rather just being idiots, thereby becoming both bar bouncer and local constable?

 

[rwsmith]

How about this philosophy.....

I you have to think about a choice, you most likely should not draw.

If you don't have a choice, then the decision is made.

Anybody think that this is feasible, or just silly? Do you think it would cover a vast majority of incidents?

 

[OldeTSgt]

I hear you, but when you arrive at the source of the gun fire, who's the bad guy?

This is certainly true - But the OP scenario was someone comes in and points a gun at a clerk (armed robbery) in that scenario I am assuming I am in the immediate vicinity of the gun being presented by the bad guy - not talking about running to the other end of a mall. I probably would not have done that seek cover and cover with pistol - someone pointing a gun at a clerk one of the convenience stores I frequent (people I know on a friendly basis as a customer) then I am guessing I will act as judgement dictates - I would no sooner not act if someone pointed a gun at one of my friends heads than those of the Corner Store employees that I talk to and interact with on a daily basis.

 

[Smoke]

There was a story on Arf.com several years back about a member who attempted to intervene in a robbery. By the author's own account the robber fired immediately and without the slightest hesitation at the very first hint of resistance by the author.

The author also stated that he hit the robber twice out of 8 shots and the robber hit the author 4 out of 5 shots and almost disabled the author for life.

I remember reading somewhere that according to the FBI less than 1/10 of 1 percent of robberies end in violence. The numbers that I heard were 2 out of every 1000.

With odds like that I think I'd be better off letting things play out unless I saw a behavior that was a definite precursor to the robber opening fire such as trying to herd people into a back room.

 

[Smoke]

I have been a hunter/shooter all my life - my reactions are so fast sometimes my wife just shakes her head (my gun is out and firing before she even sometimes recognizes the target) like the last beaver I shot or the last deer.

Checking traps one day - the water was up and my trap was down - I grapped my chain and was bringing it up when the beaver came swimming up - I immediately drew and fired center of the beaver and killed it - "in the blink of an eye" - so I had two beaver to skin. The other beaver was drowned in my trap. 45 acp makes a big hole.

To paraphrase Bruce Lee "Beavers don't shoot back".

 

[V0OBWxZS16]

There was a story on Arf.com several years back about a member who attempted to intervene in a robbery. By the author's own account the robber fired immediately and without the slightest hesitation at the very first hint of resistance by the author.

The author also stated that he hit the robber twice out of 8 shots and the robber hit the author 4 out of 5 shots and almost disabled the author for life.

My CCW Shooting AAR by Blitz_308/nascar3n8fan It is a very worthwhile read.

Blitz initially believed it was a joke. The robber forced them to move inside and proned them out. The shooting started with Blitz being shot in BOTH hands and grazed on the stomach before he could turn it into a gun fight. He got off two shots before his gun jammed; he later realized he actually hadn't depressed the grip safety. He dropped behind cover to clear it then popped back up to continue shooting. The fight continued until the bad guy ran out of ammo while Blitz was still shooting at which point he fled. He landed one more hit to the chest. Blitz fired four shots total and made one hit, also to the bad guy's hand. The police were able to follow the blood trail and capture the criminal.


The incident is a great anecdote for illustrating many things relating to self-defense. Everything from the danger of being moved to a secondary location to the prevalence of hand injuries to the importance of ammunition testing, the bad guy was using Speer Gold Dots that didn't expand from a J-frame.

 

[OldeTSgt]

To paraphrase Bruce Lee "Beavers don't shoot back".

True enough.

But, I am experienced enough in dealing with bad guys to know what my limitations are and what I am capable of and what they are capable of.

 

[SMSgt]

Florida law:
(2) A person is justified in using or threatening to use deadly force if he or she reasonably believes that using or threatening to use such force is necessary to prevent imminent death or great bodily harm to himself or herself or another or to prevent the imminent commission of a forcible felony. A person who uses or threatens to use deadly force in accordance with this subsection does not have a duty to retreat and has the right to stand his or her ground if the person using or threatening to use the deadly force is not engaged in a criminal activity and is in a place where he or she has a right to be.

So I guess one could justifiably pop a cap in the perp's head in the OP's stated scenario.

 

[jokerl90]

Found this video on youtube that touches on this discussion at about 2:32.

[ame]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=I3i9pZ9ikcU[/ame]

 

[V0OBWxZS16]

While watching the video in the http://smith-wessonforum.com/concea...barbershop-friday-night-video-link-added.html thread I realized no one had mentioned something important in this thread.

The possibility that the bad guy will have a negligent discharge if you don't intervene. I would not expect violent criminals to demonstrate safe gun handling skills. Whether war-gaming scenarios in your head or actually being in the situation you may decide to shoot the bad guy to prevent harm by an ND instead of an intentional act.