Engage or not?

[Smoke]

Well, by all means, call your highly trained range buddies the next time it all hits the fan.

You're aware that there are members here who have at least a couple of deployments under their belt right?

There are also quite a few who pay to go to places like Tactical Response or Gun Site.

There are quite a few members here who have far more training than most police

 

[OldeTSgt]

Well, by all means, call your highly trained range buddies the next time it all hits the fan.

Not trying to be disagreeable - but having worn a few different hats in my life - in the military I qualified twice a year and I was guarding some serious military assets. We very seldom trained for alot of scenarios except during our 1 wk in the field or during IG's. After I graduated the police academy we only qualified annually or when we transitioned to a new weapon - in my case a revolver in 38 spl to a 10 mm auto. When I worked as a Security Officer (during an Outage) at a Nuclear Power Plant we trained qualified once a year, And at the Corrections academy TDCJ at a Maximum security prison (up to G5 offenders with AD Seg) our weapons qualification was a joke and only once a year but our unarmed defensive tactics was great.

I shoot more than that now - I would bet - my past training is very similar to most current LEO's - OMMV

Back to the original question - I will assess the situation and respond as my judgement and training have prepared me for - and probably (based on the training I have) be able to articulate why I acted the way I did.

 

[37hotrod]

Aw heck, I ain't mad at you. I guess I have been fortunate with respect to training. As a Fed, we qualified with our duty weapon 4 times a year, and re-certified with every piece of equipment on our duty belt. We also received additional training specific to different collateral duties or task forces we were assigned to. With the Sheriff's department, we had access to a vacant warehouse complex, where we drilled on active shooter scenarios.

I realize that there are many members here that have the experience and/or training to handle a situation. This discussion isn't really meant for them. It is much more relevant to the vast majority of CCW holders with no practical background in combat shooting, who are wondering what is the appropriate course of action when confronted with bad guys.

 

[gclunde]

Once you start that ball rolling, you HAVE to commit to finishing the thing. You can't do it halfway. You also have to be ready to accept the consequences of your actions.

The above two sentences sum it up completely.

Taking another human life bothers some more than others. However, neutralizing the threat once hostilitles commence is the sole task which must me accomplished if you choose to engage..treat that individual as if they are you mortal enemy (because they are). Your background, Military/LEO/Civilian will significantly dictate how you react to the current situation and cope with the aftermath. The bottom line is that if you aren't prepared to take a human life...DO NOT unholster your weapon. If you do unholster your weapon, ensure you're committed to the bitter end to finish the fight.

I'm reminded of a statement made to made by a salty Corporal while undergoing some training in the past...

"Three types of people exist in a knife fight. 1) The person who will brandish his weapon in hopes of scaring someone off. 2) The person who will brandish it and use it if pushed to do so. 3) The deadliest of the bunch...the person who you'll never know has a knife until you've been cut or stabbed and are losing copious amounts of blood."

Personally, I ascribe to be #3...don't tip your hand and once the weapon leaves the holster, you've committed to eliminating the threat.

Semper Fi

 

[37hotrod]

Amen, Brother. As Yogi Berra said, "It ain't over, 'til it's over".

 

[Muss Muggins]

Personally, I ascribe to be #3...don't tip your hand and once the weapon leaves the holster, you've commited to eliminating the threat.

Semper Fi

Never, ever, ascribe to the theory that when you draw, you are committed to firing . . .

 

[Muss Muggins]

You're aware that there are members here who have at least a couple of deployments under their belt right?

There are also quite a few who pay to go to places like Tactical Response or Gun Site.

There are quite a few members here who have far more training than most police

I haven't done any of that . . .

 

[gclunde]

Never, ever, ascribe to the theory that when you draw, you are committed to firing . . .

We'll have to agree to disagree on this one.

My background/training instilled in me the belief that once you've chosen to utilize lethal force, you're committed. While there are always exceptions to every rule...your mindset must be that you're entering into a conflict in which your very life as well as those around you depends on your ability to neutralize the threat (enemy). My assumption is that if I have to draw my weapon, the individual(s) being faced present a grave threat and intend to do me or others serious harm. I will never be of the mindset that brandishing my weapon will eliminate the threat nor think of it in that manner.

That being said, someone in a lethal force scenario must thoroughly evaluate their options, make the best decision with the information at hand, and not hesitate or utilize half measures...in for a penny, in for a pound

IMHO, there are limited scenarios in which drawing your weapon as the first course of action is best due to the likely outcome.

Train like you fight, fight like you train.

Just my $.02

 

[Smoke]

You are missing Muss' point entirely. There have been numerous posts made on this board to the effect of "If the gun comes out of the holster, somebody is going to die." This is a very dangerous mindset.

Yes, you should never even touch your gun unless you are fully committed and justified in using deadly force but you also have to be prepared to stand down if the situation changes.

If the criminal sees the gun, pisses his pants and runs screaming like a little girl you don't get to shoot. You just hope someone videos it and puts it on YouTube


[ame]https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=L4voxtmsu9o[/ame]

 

[gclunde]

If the criminal sees the gun, pisses his pants and runs screaming like a little girl you don't get to shoot. You just hope someone videos it and puts it on YouTube

That would be one of the exceptions I referred to in my statement.

I didn't miss the point, but too many people think pulling your weapon will resolve the issue or don't fully realize the implications of introducing a lethal weapon into the scenario. If you're threatened to the point of resorting to pulling a deadly weapon...as you stated, you'd better be of the mindset that you're ready and willing to use it. Personally, I'm not willing to pull a weapon unless I'm certain there are no other options and have exhausted all other reasonable means to de-escalate the situation.

My post was simply to point out that you must have the mindset that you're potentially entering a life and death conflict between you and at least one other individual. Once again...evaluating the situation before you take any action will be the key, as well as adjusting to any changes as the scenario develops (i.e. don't chase the guy down the street like the Subway incident recently in the news). Failure to do so may put yourself and others in more danger than if you'd chosen to do nothing at all or place you in legal/civil jeopardy.

Opinions may vary...I'm outta here...but I'll continue reading others thoughts and opinions and enjoying the banter.

 

[K-framer]

The issue of intervening, or not doing so, in terms of overstepping your authority as a private citizen......really comes down to ONE point.

Are you (a) DEFENDING YOURSELF (or others)......or, are you attempting to (b) ARREST/ APPREHEND the suspect ?

Regardless of how any of the "amateur lawyers" (to be nice about it) on this forum try to interpret snippets of legal language they happen to cull from websites and other sources.....the FACT is that:

You, as a private citizen, ARE entitled to do (a).....if the circumstances qualify.

You are NOT, however, entitled to do (b). PERIOD.

That is the point at which most of the internet cowboys (including those right here) have a strong tendency to get themselves in trouble.

One last time: Having a CC license does NOT, NOT, NOT make you a LEO ! Nor does it make you a depputee sheruff !

Deal with that fact.

 

[Rastoff]

Personally, I ascribe to be #3...don't tip your hand and once the weapon leaves the holster, you've committed to eliminating the threat.

Semper Fi

Never, ever, ascribe to the theory that when you draw, you are committed to firing . . .

I agree with you Muss, but you missed what he said. He said, "...committed to eliminating the threat" not to firing.

Many threats, heck most threats, are eliminated by merely presenting the gun. However, we can't count on that and must be prepared to take the next step if necessary.

 

[wsr]

The issue of intervening, or not doing so, in terms of overstepping your authority as a private citizen......really comes down to ONE point.

Are you (a) DEFENDING YOURSELF (or others)......or, are you attempting to (b) ARREST/ APPREHEND the suspect ?

Regardless of how any of the "amateur lawyers" (to be nice about it) on this forum try to interpret snippets of legal language they happen to cull from websites and other sources.....the FACT is that:

You, as a private citizen, ARE entitled to do (a).....if the circumstances qualify.

You are NOT, however, entitled to do (b). PERIOD.

That is the point at which most of the internet cowboys (including those right here) have a strong tendency to get themselves in trouble.

One last time: Having a CC license does NOT, NOT, NOT make you a LEO ! Nor does it make you a depputee sheruff !

Deal with that fact.

Seems like you got your feelings hurt a little bit, you made wrong assertions and people called you on it, learn from it and move on

Most of what you say in this post is correct (minus your internet cowboy and aperture lawyer jabs)....the problem is that you are the only one talking about playing "depputee sherruff" trying to frame the issue so it fits into your preconceived ideas

 

[Rastoff]

Are you (a) DEFENDING YOURSELF (or others)......or, are you attempting to (b) ARREST/ APPREHEND the suspect ?

Regardless of how any of the "amateur lawyers" (to be nice about it) on this forum try to interpret snippets of legal language they happen to cull from websites and other sources.....the FACT is that:

You are NOT, however, entitled to do (b). PERIOD.

Actually, this is incorrect. A citizen is entitled to apprehend another person who is committing a crime. It's called a citizen's arrest. I don't know of any state where this is illegal.

I highly recommend against it, but you can do it.

 

[Smoke]

The issue of intervening, or not doing so, in terms of overstepping your authority as a private citizen......really comes down to ONE point.

Are you (a) DEFENDING YOURSELF (or others)......or, are you attempting to (b) ARREST/ APPREHEND the suspect ?

Regardless of how any of the "amateur lawyers" (to be nice about it) on this forum try to interpret snippets of legal language they happen to cull from websites and other sources.....the FACT is that:

You, as a private citizen, ARE entitled to do (a).....if the circumstances qualify.

You are NOT, however, entitled to do (b). PERIOD.

That is the point at which most of the internet cowboys (including those right here) have a strong tendency to get themselves in trouble.

That awkward moment when you think you know the law but you don't

Previous Next
16-3-201. Arrest by a private person.

A person who is not a peace officer may arrest another person when any crime has been or is being committed by the arrested person in the presence of the person making the arrest.
Source: L. 72: R&RE, p. 199, 1. C.R.S. 1963: 39-3-201.

ANNOTATION
Law reviews. For comment, "Leake v. Cain: Abrogation of Public Duty Doctrine in Colorado?", see 59 U. Colo. L. Rev. 383 (1988).
Annotator's note. Since 16-3-201 is similar to repealed 39-2-20, C.R.S. 1963, relevant cases construing that provision have been included in the annotations to this section.
A private citizen may arrest for any crime committed in his presence. Schiffner v. People, 173 Colo. 123, 476 P.2d 756 (1970).
Officer outside of jurisdiction arrests with authority of private citizen. A peace officer acting outside the territorial limits of his jurisdiction does not have any less authority to arrest than does a person who is a private citizen. People v. Wolf, 635 P.2d 213 (Colo. 1981).
When "in presence" requirement met. The "in presence" requirement of this section is met if the arrestor observes acts which are in themselves sufficiently indicative of a crime in the course of commission. People v. Olguin, 187 Colo. 34, 528 P.2d 234 (1974).
F.B.I. agent had authority as private citizen to arrest one escaping from police station in his presence. Schiffner v. People, 173 Colo. 123, 476 P.2d 756 (1970).
Hospital security guards, like any other citizens, have the power to make a citizen's arrest. People v. Olguin, 187 Colo. 34, 528 P.2d 234 (1974).
An arrest must be first authorized under this section before a private person can use physical force to effect the arrest. People v. Joyce, 68 P.3d 521 (Colo. App. 2002).
Applied in People v. Lott, 197 Colo. 78, 589 P.2d 945 (1979).

 

[Smoke]

Actually, this is incorrect. A citizen is entitled to apprehend another person who is committing a crime. It's called a citizen's arrest. I don't know of any state where this is illegal.

I highly recommend against it, but you can do it.

I think it's illegal in North Carolina

 

[Muss Muggins]

I think it's illegal in North Carolina

Nope. Gomer did it to Barney . . .

 

[marinedoc69]

There really are a lot of good comments from what appears some pretty knowledgeable people. With the exception of "plinking" and competition shooting, this whole subject is what everything boils down to. Carrying a weapon or keeping one in the house (or car) for self defense and all the elements involved in the shooting of another human being. I don't want to generalize about law enforcement or police officers in general, for training varies too much from agency to department, and even the individual officer, but always remember that training and qualification are not the same. Some civilians certainly train more than a lot of commissioned police officers. This is often the fault of the department due to budgetary restraints and time allotted to firearms training. And conversely, too many civilians get their concealed permit, and never train or even go to the range for simple target practice. As a civilian entering an armed confrontation remember that the national average for law enforcement so involved is about a 17% success in rounds on target. Meaning 83% are hopefully not hitting an innocent. I strongly recommend everyone make an effort to attend Mas Ayoob's MAG40 training course. It answers or at least addresses the subject and issues we have been posting on this blog. At least try for the 20 hour lecture part of the course if you feel your shooting skills really don't need any refinement. I've gone to a considerable number of firearms courses, including military, law enforcement and civilian (some of the best in the United States) but nothing that addresses the issues of an armed confrontation in todays society and all the repercussions therein as well as Mas does. For those in law enforcement I also recommend trying to find the recent article in Esquire magazine where they interviewed and spent a few days with Darren Williams, the police officer involved in the Michael Brown fiasco in Ferguson. When reading this, remember that he was a police officer and was found acting in a totally justifiable manner while performing his duty in law enforcement. This may be too long, but it's such an important subject.

 

[Rastoff]

Excellent post marinedoc69.

This is often the fault of the department due to...

I completely disagree. Learning to use the tools of the trade is never the responsibility of the department or agency that employs you. They provide some training, but it is the individual's responsibility to learn. If necessary, a good employee will do some training on their own to be the best they can be at whatever task they are performing. A mediocre employee will do the minimum and a bad employee will resist training.

I don't care what industry you work in. You rise or fall on your own efforts. Those who put in the extra effort, excel. Those who don't, will always work for those who do.

...conversely, too many civilians get their concealed permit, and never train or even go to the range for simple target practice.

This is exactly the same thing. Put in the effort and the likelihood of becoming a victim drops dramatically.

I spend a lot of time at the range. I see a lot of people who carry. Their marksmanship is...well...not impressive. I wish it were taken more seriously.

 

[K-framer]

" Actually, this is incorrect. A citizen is entitled to apprehend another person who is committing a crime. It's called a citizen's arrest. I don't know of any state where this is illegal.

I highly recommend against it, but you can do it. "


Your statement that my statement is incorrect......is......incorrect.


There are, in fact, a number of states in which the concept of "citizens arrest" is NOT recognized......and is actually illegal. That does happen to include North Carolina, the state in which I reside. May be legal in Colorado.....but it certainly is NOT legal everywhere.

----------------------------------------------------------------------


" Seems like you got your feelings hurt a little bit, you made wrong assertions and people called you on it, learn from it and move on "



Not at all. My feelings are not in the least hurt, nor did I make "wrong assertions". The problem is, as it has always been, those who somehow think that they have been appointed, by mere virtue of being issued a CC permit, as some sort of half-@%%ed LEO. Those people, whomever they may be, are nearly as dangerous as the criminals they seek to apprehend. Not by reason of criminal intent, but by reason of stupidity and arrogance. Not everyone, however, understands the reasons WHY this is true, nor do the same people accept this as fact. A great pity.

I only hope that, if I am ever faced with a situation in which such a self-appointed hotrod attempts to play Marshal, he doesn't screw up and kill or wound mere bystanders, which is very likely to happen. As for myself, if that were to occur and any negligently fired shots from such a person come MY way, I will shoot the stupid b#^&#*d in self defense - and happily so.

 

[bigmoneylewis]

A very good topic for discussion for sure . You have to ask yourself
why did you go through all the trouble of getting a CCW permit, buy a gun, holster , etc. Did you do this only for selfish reasons (are you part of the "me first" generation) Are you the kind of guy that would trample over women and children to rush to the exit in a crowded room that was on fire ? Are you the kind of guy that would crouch down in fear behind the Frito Lay potato chip display , and slowly wet your pants, as the 18 year old girl behind the counter of the local mapco hands over the $ 83 out of the register in her last moment on earth , to a career criminal who then blows her brains out , and strolls out the side door .
Will you look at yourself in the mirror the next morning as you shave and get ready to go to work and say to yourself " well , It ain't like I was a cop or anything , I had no obligation to defend anyone elses life "
If that's the way you would have handled the situation ..Well ..that makes you a piece of trash . A total looser .
As a MAN , you are obligated to protect those around you when they are in desperate need . If you have the means to do so , and decided to just not get involved , you are not worth the dirt you are standing on. Period . Would I risk my life for a total stranger? HELL YES !
Otherwise how in god's name could I ever look at myself in the mirror again . If you saw a girl being raped behind a dollar general at 10:30 at night would you just quietly step away and dial 911 so that the officers can try to look for the guy , and take down a report , or would you grab the nearest stick of wood and change the situation .
Maybe I am just too old fashioned , but it seems the world has evolved into a bunch of spinless cowards who only look out for their own well being . You don't need a badge to do the right thing .
The legality of the situation, and your own personal well being should
take a back seat when faced in one of these situations .

Lewis

 

[V0OBWxZS16]

You are NOT, however, entitled to do (b). PERIOD.
...
There are, in fact, a number of states in which the concept of "citizens arrest" is NOT recognized......and is actually illegal. That does happen to include North Carolina, the state in which I reside. May be legal in Colorado.....but it certainly is NOT legal everywhere.

"A number of states" and "PERIOD" are mutually exclusive. Please choose one.

As for myself, if that were to occur and any negligently fired shots from such a person come MY way, I will shoot the stupid b#^&#*d in self defense - and happily so.

Given the options of flee/take cover, assist the good guy in defending the victims, or assisting the bad guy(s) in murdering one or more victims you would choose option 3??? Wow!


I went back and counted only TWO people who brought up scenarios that could be interpreted as acting like a LEO (ordering the bad guy to drop his gun) and both were cautionary tales. I have no idea who you're ranting against.

 

[jframejoey]

OP, use lethal force to protect lives not property. ..... Unless youre way up in Stephens County....then its pew pew pew!

 

[Kronos]

Now there's an interesting question:what to do if the perp drops their weapon and gives up? I sure as hell ain't arresting them! always thought I'd tell them I'm calling the cops and they can stay and wait or scram.

 

[wsr]

" snip...



----------------------------------------------------------------------


" Seems like you got your feelings hurt a little bit, you made wrong assertions and people called you on it, learn from it and move on "



Not at all. My feelings are not in the least hurt, nor did I make "wrong assertions". The problem is, as it has always been, those who somehow think that they have been appointed, by mere virtue of being issued a CC permit, as some sort of half-@%%ed LEO. Those people, whomever they may be, are nearly as dangerous as the criminals they seek to apprehend. Not by reason of criminal intent, but by reason of stupidity and arrogance. Not everyone, however, understands the reasons WHY this is true, nor do the same people accept this as fact. A great pity.

Lets review some of your jewels of wisdom from post #35

Your authorization to use your carry weapon extends ONLY to situations in which YOU are DIRECTLY threatened with death or serious harm - NOT others, except in the case of your family (or certain others) in certain situations (such as defending the interior spaces of your home)

.

Embarrassingly wrong

Being a bystander in a store does NOT qualify - in ANY jurisdiction in this country - unless the perp acts in threat to you, directly. If he/she were to make overt threats with a deadly weapon to you, then light him up. If not, you would seriously risk prosecution.

again embarrassingly wrong

(There was just recently a case, exactly like this hypothetical scenario, in the news. Bystander in a store chases perp from the store, shoots at him as he is running away, chases him to his car, then shoots at the car as the guy is driving away. The bystander is in jail, charged with a number of serious crimes.)

utterly stupid comparison

I only hope that, if I am ever faced with a situation in which such a self-appointed hotrod attempts to play Marshal, he doesn't screw up and kill or wound mere bystanders, which is very likely to happen.

LOL...again you are the only one playing in this fantasy

As for myself, if that were to occur and any negligently fired shots from such a person come MY way, I will shoot the stupid b#^&#*d in self defense - and happily so.

Ummm your post on here indicate the opposite, you would be frozen in inaction trying to sort through all the silliness in your head

 

[OldeTSgt]

As I said I would act as my training and judgement leads me to believe to do what is necessary to protect myself and OTHERS.

Seems there are lots of former LEO's/military on this forum - generally speaking our we are trained, and pyschologically conditioned to run towards the sound of gunfire - you can not switch that off once you become a civillian - if you can your conditioned response is not trained enough. We were always conditioned to fire as we advanced (military) even in the law enforcement world when we were clearing or going to do CQB we were not trained to sit back and let someone else do it - even today (my wife can attest to this) when I hear the sound of gunfire that I am not expecting my reaction is to immediately go to my gun and assess what just happened. Now I am not saying I draw it every time - but my hand immediately goes to my gun to establish a shooting grip.

I have been a hunter/shooter all my life - my reactions are so fast sometimes my wife just shakes her head (my gun is out and firing before she even sometimes recognizes the target) like the last beaver I shot or the last deer.

Checking traps one day - the water was up and my trap was down - I grapped my chain and was bringing it up when the beaver came swimming up - I immediately drew and fired center of the beaver and killed it - "in the blink of an eye" - so I had two beaver to skin. The other beaver was drowned in my trap. 45 acp makes a big hole.

 

[The Big D]

Have told this story in other threads over the years but here it is, again.

About ten (10) years ago I was in my local beerroom watching college football on a pleasant Saturday afternoon. Two (2) knuckleheads repeatedly tried to provoke other patrons to the extent everyone was annoyed at their antics. They were not trying to pick a physical fight it seemed; they were just acting like idiots.

No bouncer(s) that afternoon but manager and bartender finally told them they're done and began escorting them to the door. At that point one kicked a hole in the glass at which time I stood up, joined the 'good guys', and told the misfits to get moving. By then we were on the sidewalk of a very busy roadway.

One of the punks said: 'Go get the gun.' I said: 'Don't have to go anywhere to get mine' as I proned them out. Soon thereafter the local county PD arrived and took charge. Of interest is that the county cops tossed their car...no gun(s.).

Some may have done nothing, but to those I say what WOULD you have done? Waited for them to come back with a gun? Hoped they were just kidding?

That said, I am as well prepared to deal with situations like this as most anyone, and my internal makeup simply demands I do so.

Some of your methods obviously vary..

Be safe.

 

[Rastoff]

...pyschologically conditioned to run towards the sound of gunfire - you can not switch that off once you become a civillian...

I hear you, but when you arrive at the source of the gun fire, who's the bad guy?

 

[Smoke]

[ame]https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=_TEke2EHPAQ[/ame]

 

[shinbone]

The testosterone flows freely in this thread.