Ethical Question

[rwsmith]

If it were available to me, it's already been paid for and out of the hands of 'bad' people by at least one middleman. So it's 'just' a gun. I don't go out of my way to buy from terrorists, but all I know about a lot of my guns is that they had at least one previous owner and PROBABLY not associated with a crime. I don't buy Nazi helmets or Totenkopf pins but I would love to have a Nazi era Luger, P-38 , a Gerwehr or Mauser rifle.

 

[375hh1973]

What evil group used 3rd generation Smiths?

 

[Tabby Lynn]

Sort of inspired by, but not limited to, the ongoing events in the Middle East:

Would you deliberately seek to own a gun or tool surplused from an organization that (likely) committed human-rights abuses?

For example, there’s a lot of third-generation S&W semiautomatics coming back in and floating around places like Robinson Trading Post in decent shape. As a firearm, there’s nothing wrong with them, and most have been carried a lot and shot a little. But in the back of my head, I don’t know if I’m super-comfortable carrying something that was used as a facilitator for what I personally don’t agree with. For the same reasons, I haven’t picked up any German Russian-capture milsurps…as much as I love them (and I do), I don’t want them enough to buy them.

I don’t believe in ghosts or bloody nightmares, but I also don’t want Bull Connor’s nightstick or the Trapdoor from Wounded Knee in my karma…

What are your thoughts?

A firearm is a tool. Some use it for unlawful purposes, others use it for self defense or simple target shooting. The firearm itself is completely innocent of any and all nasty deeds that were associated with it. The nasty comes from the individual with the firearm in their hand. The firearm knows nothing but to do whatever the person holding it wants it to do. It is 100% blameless. Without a human to pick it up and shoot it, it will simply sit on the counter or wherever it is and be 100% harmless. So in regards to your mental breakdown, forget about who might have previously owned it, buy it and use it for peaceful and legal purposes.

 

[jaguargolf]

Many a righteous warrior has fought the good fight with weapons taken from a foe.

 

[IAM Rand]

I bought a Charter Arms 44spl Bulldog just like Son of Sam, should I be ashamed of myself? It is a really good shooter. That and my son's dogs have not told me to go out and kill someone. Reality is what you make of it. Woof woof

 

[kev74]

I don't want to own commie guns - AKs, SKS, etc. I briefly had a Mosin that I won, but sold it pretty quickly.

 

[65-2x2]

I don't want Nazi stuff in my house and I come from a long line of Methodists.

 

[BLACKHAWKNJ]

I have lots of books on the Third Reich, even have a copy of Mein Kampf. Doesn't make me a Nazi.
Started studying Russian in 1963, have a copy of The Communist Manifesto. Doesn't make me a
Communist.
These are historical artifacts and should be preserved as such.

 

[Deke Thornton]

I have a 98k with Waffenamt stamps, I didn't buy the rifle because of them and they never bothered me. Having a cool, historical rifle to take out to the range isn't the same as supporting the cause that commissioned the rifle 80 years ago. The fact that a tool of war of the "thousand year reich" wound up as a plinking rifle in America seems somehow fitting.

I have a Mosin-Nagant rifle and an 1895 Nagant revolver, both made in Russia. They both have Finnish capture marks and that is why I bought those particular pieces. I grew up in an area where there were a lot of people of Finnish heritage. I studied Finnish history and have a great admiration for the way the Finns stood up to the Russians in the 1939 Winter War. So in honor of the Finns I have those pieces that the Finns captured from the Russians.

Both of my Mosins are Russian with different Finnish capture markings. I didn't realize they were Finnish when I bought them, but that was a nice bonus.

When the Israelis were equipping themselves for their War of Independence in 1948 they use large numbers of Mauser 98ks.

Back in the '90s there were some 98ks making the rounds on the surplus market that had been converted to .308 by the Israelis. I got a kick out of the fact the Waffenamt stamps had all been carefully ground off and replaced by the Star of David. I would have bought one, but they were all pretty worn out. I imagine those rifles had seen quite a bit of use.

 

[Imissedagain]

Will not date a woman named Eve, have no friends named George, and have never touched a one dollar bill.
My family owns apple and cherry orchards.
Very superstitious,
the Devil's on his way.

 

[DWalt]

I have a 98k with Waffenamt stamps, I didn't buy the rifle because of them and they never bothered me. Having a cool, historical rifle to take out to the range isn't the same as supporting the cause that commissioned the rifle 80 years ago. The fact that a tool of war of the "thousand year reich" wound up as a plinking rifle in America seems somehow fitting.



Both of my Mosins are Russian with different Finnish capture markings. I didn't realize they were Finnish when I bought them, but that was a nice bonus.



Back in the '90s there were some 98ks making the rounds on the surplus market that had been converted to .308 by the Israelis. I got a kick out of the fact the Waffenamt stamps had all been carefully ground off and replaced by the Star of David. I would have bought one, but they were all pretty worn out. I imagine those rifles had seen quite a bit of use.

I remember reading a story about early Israeli soldiers being trained in the method of using a rock or brick on the bolt handle to open and close the rifle bolt. Fire it, hammer the bolt open, then hammer it closed to fire again.

 

[LVSteve]

One thing I know for sure is that none of the guns used by bad people squeezed their own trigger. As a milsurp collector I have guns from all over the world that may, or may not, have been used in all kinds of nefarious events. So what? What's done is done, and there's nothing you or I can do about it now.

 

[A10]

I've owned Nazi marked firearms. I've owned ChiCom firearms. My grandson has a Waffen SS helmet in original condition with the original liner. I don't see how any organization could be worse than those I've named.

Short answer, no.

 

[Rudi]

Was it last year, when a Bonnie & Clyde gun came to auction? I think it went for near 1/4 million$$$$$$.

 

[hkcavalier]

Firearms are objects. If we give them totemic significance, that speaks more to our own ethics and morality, not the "evilness" of the object. Evil is an issue of the heart, not the tool used.

There are very few objects that can only be used for evil, and sadly none that can only be used for good.

 

[steelslaver]

A gun is no more responsible for what the owner does with it than the manufacture. A revolver has no concision, to it a round fired at a target is not one bit different than one fired and killing an innocent person.

 

[Greyman50]

In my collecting, trading and selling days had a very good friend that was a PBR skipper in Vietnam. Chapter on him in the PBR book. He had a Huge nazi collection that had to be seen to realize. We did many shows together and had a few drinks afterwards. He was Jewish. Sadly he passed couple years ago and another long time friend managed the sale of his collection, close to million bucks.

 

[Heinz]

I have/had a number of German military pistols. None have Nazi era eagle proofs. Only Imperial or Weimar. My wife was a Jew. I do own one Sauer 38H civilian issue with an eagle proof. great pistol, ugly mark

 

[38 Specialist]

Interesting question. I encourage you to follow your gut and pay little heed to what forumites have to say. But since you did invite comment, may I ask what you suspect these guns were used for?

If you'd prefer to not share, let me pose a hypothetical. Who here would want the guns used to shoot the Kennedy brothers, John Lennon, Reagan. Or how about Bernard Goetz' revolvers? What about guns used by "heros" to kill bad guys? I wouldn't take pleasure in owning it. Yeah, it's an inanimate object....nonetheless, handling it would conjour up images of violence that I don't want. I don't believe in vibes or karma. But objects makes us feel things. So I think it's perfectly reasonable to not want to have certain objects around.

I can see why people WOULD want to own these historical guns. I'm not immune to the allure of gruesome fascination. And if I owned one of these, I wouldn't be above selling it to the highest bigger to stoke HIS fascination.

A less extreme example would be a WWII service gun that you know was carried in combat but have no other info. I'd probably enjoy owning one, despite what it may have done. Something carried by a soldier, fighting for whatever side, was his individual lifeline.

I'd like to know more about the OPs dilemma.

 

[fatcat3]

I'm much more concerned where and who my $ go's to than what a gun, knife, etc. was used for in the past. I prefer not to support people that hate me, and sometimes even that's not possible. YMMV.