Ex Cop, now cop killer on loose in L.A. Careful.
- Thread starter Northdallas7
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bitstream
Member
Um, I'd say those Officer had all kinds of Intent when they opened up; they sure intended to kill the occupant of the truck. You don't shoot that many rounds at a truck just to ask them to stop and talk. In my world, shooting first is pretty clear intent you mean to kill somebody.
That said, I don't see criminal charges on the Officers, other than possibly gross negligence. I don't care how hopped up they were, they are supposed to be professionals and command the occupant(s) of the vehicle to surrender. You aren't allowed to open the discussion with a volley of fire.
As for bodily harm, I'll go out on a limb and suggest that getting shot twice in the back and requiring a stay at the hospital is pretty good evidence of harm. Seems to me that those bullets could just have easily been deadly if they hit her and penetrated. Just a matter of placement. Those cops are really lucky.
Again, no bashing here. I don't fault the department or all cops, just the one who shot first. That cop was clearly negligent and deserve some punishment. The truck was the wrong make, wrong model, wrong color, and didn't have a roof rack. The occupants were two ladies, not one large back male. You can't simply brush this under the rug if you want the public to respect the police. I'll go along that the other officers simply responded to whoever shot first. Find that guy and give him the punishment.
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cmort666
Member
- I don't know about where you live, but here the GOVERNMENT brings criminal charges, NOT the individual. If the GOVERNMENT chooses not to bring charges the private citizen victim is SOL.
- So what you're saying is that the woman was TRIVIALLY wounded in the back with a firearm?
- The government is trying to buy the victim off with a new truck? If I shoot somebody up in their vehicle, can I do that?
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cmort666
Member
I guarantee you that if all three victims had been killed (they actually shot up TWO vehicles), the enablers would be singing the same tune:
- It's the victims' fault.
- This is normal behavior for police.
- The victims were <insert pejorative buzzword>.
Delos
Member
Death Hunt
Apparently the movie Death Hunt was (loosely) based on a real story. I believe I first read it in Alaska Magazine back in the 1960's or 70's. They put in old stories of interest.
If I recall correctly the Mounties went out to arrest a guy for something serious. He was living in a double logged log cabin. Small and hard to build but the only way to get extra insulation long ago. Anyway he would not come out to be arrested. The Mounties shot most of their bullets and ate most of their food, Then had to return for supplies. When they returned he was gone. They began following his tracks in the snow.
He was a man of the North well accustomed to bad weather and walking on snowshoes. They even used an airplane to spot him when weather permitted.
If memory serves his eyelids and lips were pretty much gone by the time they got him.
Death Hunt (1981) - Trivia - IMDb
(About 7 paragraphs down)
The manhunt that this movie is based on was the first time that airplanes were used by authorities in Canada to track down a wanted fugitive. The type of plane used was a a Bristol open cockpit bi-plane and a real-life replica was constructed for this movie.
Apparently the movie Death Hunt was (loosely) based on a real story. I believe I first read it in Alaska Magazine back in the 1960's or 70's. They put in old stories of interest.
If I recall correctly the Mounties went out to arrest a guy for something serious. He was living in a double logged log cabin. Small and hard to build but the only way to get extra insulation long ago. Anyway he would not come out to be arrested. The Mounties shot most of their bullets and ate most of their food, Then had to return for supplies. When they returned he was gone. They began following his tracks in the snow.
He was a man of the North well accustomed to bad weather and walking on snowshoes. They even used an airplane to spot him when weather permitted.
If memory serves his eyelids and lips were pretty much gone by the time they got him.
Death Hunt (1981) - Trivia - IMDb
(About 7 paragraphs down)
The manhunt that this movie is based on was the first time that airplanes were used by authorities in Canada to track down a wanted fugitive. The type of plane used was a a Bristol open cockpit bi-plane and a real-life replica was constructed for this movie.
williamlayton
Member
Lew
The two women in the truck delivering papers were not part of this either.
Innocents are going to be hurt if it works out to my considerations.
Let's say ---just for talking---that he is correct in all he wrote. Solving a problem is not on his agenda. It is just plain and simple, old time retribution.
Crazy---well, that will be dbatable---PO is not.
As for his girl friend, i wonder how many have said that about me when I dumped them?
I don't know anything but I do understand being mad very intimately. It took some time to put this together, it is nort harem scareum.
All any of us can do is watch and find out.
Blessings
The two women in the truck delivering papers were not part of this either.
Innocents are going to be hurt if it works out to my considerations.
Let's say ---just for talking---that he is correct in all he wrote. Solving a problem is not on his agenda. It is just plain and simple, old time retribution.
Crazy---well, that will be dbatable---PO is not.
As for his girl friend, i wonder how many have said that about me when I dumped them?
I don't know anything but I do understand being mad very intimately. It took some time to put this together, it is nort harem scareum.
All any of us can do is watch and find out.
Blessings
cmort666
Member
Neither was the guy in Torrence who was in his truck when it was rammed and shot up. He managed to avoid being shot, but suffered a concussion and other injuries. Police in Torrence are trying to buy his silence as well.
We've gone past "isolated incident" to "pattern of behavior". Neither vehicle nor its occupants met the description of the vehicle being sought in ANY way, apart from them being trucks. Now that Dorner no longer has his truck, will the ad-hoc rules of engagement become even more nebulous and self-fulfilling?
How many more of these incidents will happen before Dorner is captured or killed?
MaximumLawman
Member
So...what's the legal definition in CA of the level of injuries they suffered?
Does CA define injuries along these lines with respect to the elements of various crimes? Did the women's injuries rise to the felony level? Do your or Mort even know the elements of the "negligence" crimes you're talking about? What about the elements of specific intent? In short, what is the specific crime you would like the officers to be charged with? And can they be reasonably charged with this crime if the women who were shot do not wish to cooperate as victims? Please be specific and don't just make up a crime like Mort likes to do: "Uh, Recklessly Shooting With Intent to Kill Recklessly!"
For example, here's the definition of "serious injury" in my state. What is it in the state Mort is talking about and did these women's injuries reach this level? Or is it assumed they did because "My God, they were SHOT! By the POLICE!"
Seriously? If one guy is wrong in shooting, the other guys who shoot afterwards are in the clear because of a Pavlovian Response?
Eight. And, might I add: Won't somebody think of the CHILDREN?!?!!?
Really? So if police in different cities who work under different administrations, screw up, their collective screw ups constitute a "pattern of behavior" from Maine to California? Maybe every police department in the country should consequently be operating under Federal consent decrees.....How on earth did we spot these "patterns" before the internet was invented?
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cmort666
Member
I'm betting that even in California, shooting somebody is deadly force, regardless of where they're hit, be it in the back or the earlobe. Here that would be aggravated assault at a minimum.
The attempts to justify these crimes will have an effect. It's highly doubtful that it'll be the one desired.
"Yeah we shot her in the back, TWICE, for no reason, but not 'SERIOUSLY'."
- Blame the victim.
- Trivialize the harm.
- "Everybody does it."
cmort666
Member
Quote me using the words "negligence". You CAN'T.
This goes WAY beyond mere "negligence". The shootings were reckless and wanton acts.
Those cops INTENDED to shoot SOMEBODY. They were aiming at the women. They hit them.
If Dorner meant to shoot somebody OTHER than the people he shot, would that make his murders just "misdemeanors"?
Attempts to minimize the harm and blame the victims send a message.
I think this guy is on his own. From his writings he strikes me as a loner and has trouble trusting others. I don't think he is as good as they are making him out to be. His LE training is nothing special and unless he was a SEAL I wouldn't be too impressed. He is still dangerous though and should be handled very carefully.
Unlike most people I would love to see him taken alive, in cuffs with a perp walk. He is so obsessed with his name and reputation that being put on trial for a few murders would destroy him inside. After that hopefully the CO's find him hanging from underwear one morning. That seems like a fitting end to this cowards life to me. Getting lit up by LAPD works for me too though.
I really don't know what to make of the two cars just getting lit up by the cops. If there was a burly black guy in the driver's seat I could kind of understand it, but they weren't even close on the description. Needless to say I think those officers are done being cops. I can understand the stress and fear they have while dealing with this situation but there are some things you just can't screw up.
I'm also a little concerned about copycats. I've worked with more than a few people who I often wondered how the hell did they pass the psych exam? One guy in particular is in the process of being terminated for some very legit psych reasons but truly believes he is being railroaded. The last thing we need is more Rambo meets Serpico cases.
Unlike most people I would love to see him taken alive, in cuffs with a perp walk. He is so obsessed with his name and reputation that being put on trial for a few murders would destroy him inside. After that hopefully the CO's find him hanging from underwear one morning. That seems like a fitting end to this cowards life to me. Getting lit up by LAPD works for me too though.
I really don't know what to make of the two cars just getting lit up by the cops. If there was a burly black guy in the driver's seat I could kind of understand it, but they weren't even close on the description. Needless to say I think those officers are done being cops. I can understand the stress and fear they have while dealing with this situation but there are some things you just can't screw up.
I'm also a little concerned about copycats. I've worked with more than a few people who I often wondered how the hell did they pass the psych exam? One guy in particular is in the process of being terminated for some very legit psych reasons but truly believes he is being railroaded. The last thing we need is more Rambo meets Serpico cases.
cmort666
Member
Neither of the vehicles shot up met the description of Dorner's in ANY way apart from them being trucks.
- color
- make
- model
- visible configuration
I wouldn't be so sure. I have no doubt that the union will go to the mat for them.
The campaign of vilification of the victims is just getting started too.
I'm seeing claims that they didn't "screw up" AT ALL.
Try to justify shooting the women in the pickup (that didn't match the description) any way you want. It just won't wash. That was more than just being 'jumpy'. When you pull a trigger at someone, that is deadly force. Period. No do-overs, no I'm sorry.
There were thousands of cops on duty in the Los Angles basin that night. The others were professional. They didn't start shooting pickups.
It's not just a screw up.
If that had been my wife, my sister, my mother, or my daughter, I'd want their guts slung over a fence.
Plain enough?
There were thousands of cops on duty in the Los Angles basin that night. The others were professional. They didn't start shooting pickups.
It's not just a screw up.
If that had been my wife, my sister, my mother, or my daughter, I'd want their guts slung over a fence.
Plain enough?
MaximumLawman
Member
So does seeing rogue cops in every donut shop and trying to make an incident fit your "theory" instead of the other way around.
Links please.
bitstream
Member
The guy that was shot at and had his truck broadsided is suing
Redondo Beach man, shot at by police in Christopher Dorner manhunt, calls Torrance officers 'reckless' - LA Daily News
I just don't see any possible way that the police can excuse the officers involved in this incident and the two ladies a few blocks away just before this happened.
There is simply no justification that the public will accept for the police to ambush a vehicle and shoot it up without confirming that it is, in fact, a valid target. The officers involved need to be seriously punished and the entire force in the L.A. and surrounding areas need a refresher talk from their supervisors immediately regarding ROE.
Redondo Beach man, shot at by police in Christopher Dorner manhunt, calls Torrance officers 'reckless' - LA Daily News
I just don't see any possible way that the police can excuse the officers involved in this incident and the two ladies a few blocks away just before this happened.
There is simply no justification that the public will accept for the police to ambush a vehicle and shoot it up without confirming that it is, in fact, a valid target. The officers involved need to be seriously punished and the entire force in the L.A. and surrounding areas need a refresher talk from their supervisors immediately regarding ROE.
cmort666
Member
But she wasn't shot THAT bad, and it probably doesn't even show. And if she suffers pain and emotional trauma for the rest of her life, some would tell you she just needs to "man up"...
What those cops did was so outrageous and unconscionable, that a lot of cops seem loathe to defend this behavior, even if they don't openly condemn it.
There are vocal exceptions...
LVSteve
Member
LA Times is reporting that the search at Big Bear has been scaled down. They have been to all the cabins in the area and found no trace.
Dorner manhunt: Authorities scale back search in Big Bear area - latimes.com
Dorner manhunt: Authorities scale back search in Big Bear area - latimes.com
MaximumLawman
Member
You're the who was ranting for charges, I believe.....In order to determine what charges are appropriate you have to know what the injuries are because we don't charge people for "what could have happened", we charge them for what "did" happen. And we also charge people based on whether the victim wants to prosecute or not. If these women do not want the officers charged for shooting them, criminal charges, if any, will take that into account regardless of what YOU want to happen.
cmort666
Member
You don't know what injuries they suffered, what lasting effects there will be, or what they want, and by all indications don't much care.
Trying to minimize what was done sends a message.
MaximumLawman
Member
Paper said minor injuries on one and the older woman was released from the hospital the next day.....How much am I supposed to "care"? I'm on the other side of the country, don't know these people or the guy who shot them and had nothing to do with it. Besides, when it comes to cops screwing up, you care enough for all of us....
PA Reb
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Wait, where is "zy" as shown in your location? It must be outside the U.S. because you sure don't seem to be making lawful sense to me. "We don't charge people for what could have happened."? What does attempted murder or attempted anything mean? Where does negligence fit into all that? Do victims who end up in lifelong comas or dead somehow tell prosecutors if they should or should not file charges? To be quite honest, I can't stand the attitudes of 80% or more of today's law enforcement officers and those that shot up these innocent people are the worst and the reason why. They all need to go down, and go down big time
!Sorry but this back and forth bickering and arguing is getting real old real fast. I've never seen so many factless theories in all my years and this thread is out of control!
ogilvyspecial
Member
We've tried to let this thread run, but it appears as
if that's not going to work, for now at least.
Time for a break.
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