smoothshooter
Member
I like the idea of a death penalty.
The problem is with the bureaucracy that is supposed to see to it that the sentence is carried out in a timely manner.
Execution in Japan
- Thread starter DWalt
- Start date
I like the idea of a death penalty.
The problem is with the bureaucracy that is supposed to see to it that the sentence is carried out in a timely manner.
CAJUNLAWYER
Member
Not the bureaucracy but that pesky little constitution and the bill of rights-you know the one, it has the 2nd amendment in there as well, right before the 4th 5th 6th 8th and 14th amendments.
There are two types of deterrence. General and Specific. General deterrence refers to deterring others/society from committing a crime by the threat of punishment. Specific deterrence refers to deterring the person/people who committed the crime.
General deterrence requires a punishment that is swift and severe and certain.
Capital punishment is severe, but it is not swift and certainly not certain so its general deterrence ability is questionable. As to specific deterrence, Capital punishment is 100% effective as a person executed will not commit another murder.
I am for capital punishment in theory, but against it in practice, as a person stands a better chance of being struck by lightning than being executed for murder. Whether society benefits from capital punishment is up for debate. The only group that potentially benefits is the appeals attorneys.
General deterrence requires a punishment that is swift and severe and certain.
Capital punishment is severe, but it is not swift and certainly not certain so its general deterrence ability is questionable. As to specific deterrence, Capital punishment is 100% effective as a person executed will not commit another murder.
I am for capital punishment in theory, but against it in practice, as a person stands a better chance of being struck by lightning than being executed for murder. Whether society benefits from capital punishment is up for debate. The only group that potentially benefits is the appeals attorneys.
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I think many of us miss an important aspect of life sentences or death. Deterrence is one thing, but the other is to protect us. Locking them up or killing them keeps them and their criminal activities out of our lives. If not the death penalty, then put them in a cage and weld it shut. CAJUNLAWYER covered it very well:
Due process and constitutional adherence are imperative, but justice must be swift, severe and decisive.
Due process and constitutional adherence are imperative, but justice must be swift, severe and decisive.
Our legislature in NM flushed the death penalty in 2009. Homicide rates dropped, and remain lower than 2009. https://cde.ucr.cjis.gov/LATEST/webapp/#/pages/explorer/crime/crime-trend
Correlation vs Causation
Correlation does not equal causation. Correlation is a measurement of the strength and direction of the relationship between two or more variables, here eliminating the death penalty and murder rate. Causation indicates a similar but different relationship between variables, namely that one variable produces an effect on another variable or causes it. Just because the murder rate declines after the death penalty is eliminated is correlated, but not necessarily the cause of the decline. There are many other variables at play here.
Correlation does not equal causation. Correlation is a measurement of the strength and direction of the relationship between two or more variables, here eliminating the death penalty and murder rate. Causation indicates a similar but different relationship between variables, namely that one variable produces an effect on another variable or causes it. Just because the murder rate declines after the death penalty is eliminated is correlated, but not necessarily the cause of the decline. There are many other variables at play here.
I don't know what studies you're talking about, but if they were accurate at the time I doubt they are now. My observation has been that with the current system, offenders are not sentenced to prison until they have offended repeatedly. The point being that with very rare exceptions there just aren't any first time offenders in prison. Verging on NONE.
Who's being incarcerated that shouldn't be? Yes, most of the crimes are committed by people with substance abuse problems. But what else are you going to do with them. Drug treatment doesn't work all that well even with ones that want it. Most of them chose and will continue to choose their lifestyle. Treatment programs have no chance of success with them.
I volunteer in a maximum security prison. I have good relationships with the men I work with. Most I deal with express regret and remorse for their actions that got them there. Many of the guys I work with have an L (life sentence), some multiple life sentences. A minority are getting out soon. Most of those have been in for many years.
Many of these men know the Bible far better than I do. I have great respect for their faith. I also know that they have serious addiction issues and their past history indicates that despite their best intentions and apparent strong faith, many will fall and end up back in prison if not dead first. And these are the cream of the crop in prison. These are the ones that regret their criminal behavior. They are Not like the majority of residents that are doing drugs and are gang members in prison.
I wish these guys the best and pray for their success and consider them brothers in Christ. However, many of them are better off in prison (a really terrible place) than out in society. I know in the the longer term, I don't want them running loose around my friends and family. Some I don't want to get out but celebrate the light they shine in prison and the positive influence they make on the general atmosphere in the prisons. Their life is not without value.
Don't get me wrong. We do have some major successes. Some of our best volunteers and even leaders in full time positions helping men both in and out of prison are former inmates. Some having served many years, some having wasted (largely) most of a lifetime in prisons. These are great men. But they freely acknowledge the dismal recidivism rate even with those that leave prison with the strongest faith and best intentions.
It seems many with addiction histories are just one slip or fall away from going down the same path that put them in prison. Lets face it, we all slip or fall in this life. We pick ourselves up, often with help, and get back on track. With many of these guys with addiction issues, that slip is catastrophic.
So yeah, until we get some control of the drug problem, which is the root issue with the vast majority of these guys, warehousing is a viable solution.
Personally I think the death penalty is appropriate for some. And it should be carried out in a timely manner so that it will provide a deterrence. Some guy getting executed that no one from the neighborhood remembers isn't much of a deterrence.
But it sure needs to be JUSTICE. I've personally observed some dishonest prosecutors, one of which lost his license. I also know some defense attorneys that are calloused and no longer have the right compassion or mindset to assure justice for their clients. Plus, if you get a public defender, the accused may find himself in a world of hurt. When even the best intentioned public defenders have a client load of a hundred or more cases, many public defenders just don't have the time to truly know the accused except for their brief interactions when seeing their clients. They have to rely on what investigators find and witness testimony.
After all that rambling, I don't know the answer. But putting or leaving unrepentant and unreformed on the street doesn't work.
Who cares where they'd rather be. If they're dead what they prefer no longer matters, nor do we have to pay for their room, board, medical expenses or attorney fees. If you want to punish murderer, etc., erase them. Defense attorneys want to keep them alive because dead guys don't need their services.
Who cares where they'd rather be. If they're dead what they prefer no longer matters, nor do we have to pay for their room, board, medical expenses or attorney fees. If you want to punish murderer, etc., erase them. Defense attorneys want to keep them alive because dead guys don't need their services.
I really like the idea of eraser, don't publish their pictures all over the news media. I also appreciate the idea of letting them quite literally "rot in jail".
I had a friend years ago that worked as a guard at McNeil Island Penitentiary in Washington State. He's a fat guy and I asked about health requirements being a guard. He said "Its the food." I asked him what about the food, his reply was that the food they serve in McNeil Island is better than the old school lunch program or any food he ever was served while in the Air Force. Now I've eaten on an Airbase or two and had an award winning mess hall while stationed in Germany, if food is better than that there is something wrong with that system. Beans and Rice is a complete meal...
Lets also be aware of the free medical while in prison, not to mention dialysis, etc. I'm not in favor of "prison for profit" or privatized prison but in many ways I believe prisoners are spoiled.
That friend of mine told me that if he ever found himself destitute and down on his luck at an advanced age he would simply attempt an armed robbery of a federally insured bank, Bingo...
I am for the death penalty. When everyone is 100% positive it is the right guy.
But, then I also believe in a point system. Every crime is worth X number of points. Reach 100 points and you forfeit your life.
Murder 50
Attempted murder 40
Armed robbery 40
Rape 30
Kidnapping 30
Assault with a weapon 20 points
Assault 10
Felony theft 10 points
Belonging to either major political party 100 points
No stacking or combining crimes during a single act for more points. The worst crime that day is what they get for points. Rob a bank and kill a guard. Points for murder. Next day steal a car. Car theft points.
But, then I also believe in a point system. Every crime is worth X number of points. Reach 100 points and you forfeit your life.
Murder 50
Attempted murder 40
Armed robbery 40
Rape 30
Kidnapping 30
Assault with a weapon 20 points
Assault 10
Felony theft 10 points
Belonging to either major political party 100 points
No stacking or combining crimes during a single act for more points. The worst crime that day is what they get for points. Rob a bank and kill a guard. Points for murder. Next day steal a car. Car theft points.
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Inusuit
Member
Got a link to that study?
The Last Standing Knight
Member
This thread started about executions in Japan.
Japan is another country just like every other nation on Earth. They do things differently there.
Law enforcement in Japan while it does the same job as here, there are noticable and significant differences...differences that would get the police sued and and put in prison here.
Their justice system is different...and it works brilliantly for them. Their society...as most societies on Earth, are not used to the same level of "freedom" and "rights" we have here and are either limited in those freddoms and rights if they have them at all. So any debate in that regard is apples and oranges.
No system is perfect and never will be, but ours right now is in an utter state of chaos which all of us already are fully aware of when we turn on the TV every night.
I wished I could say a lot of the bad guys I dealt with were deterred by prison...most are not. Many have family and friends in prison and really don't seem to mind it or really care about going back..."three hots and a cot".
Then there were "the others". Ones you knew had only two roads in their life; the penetentiary or the cemetery. These people were beyond redemption or rehabilitation. Looking into their eyes was like looking into an abyss. To me, these are the type that capital punishment (not life in prison) was designed specifically for. Notable examples: Charles Manson, Albert Fish, Jeffrey Dahmer, the list goes on. For everyone of the names I just mentioned, there are hundreds more.
A lot of these types of people come up for parole to be released back into society...some get it. Some go back to old habits as soon as they get it. In Japan, there isn't that problem.
You might want to read some of the articles I've read over the years about death row in Japan...it isn't death row here which is a five star hotel by comparison. If you are to meet the hangman there, they don't sugar coat it and treat you as little more that subhuman dirt. Such knowledge gets out into their society and has a deterrent value all its own.
Sorry for the long, drawn out "War and Peace" here.
Japan is another country just like every other nation on Earth. They do things differently there.
Law enforcement in Japan while it does the same job as here, there are noticable and significant differences...differences that would get the police sued and and put in prison here.
Their justice system is different...and it works brilliantly for them. Their society...as most societies on Earth, are not used to the same level of "freedom" and "rights" we have here and are either limited in those freddoms and rights if they have them at all. So any debate in that regard is apples and oranges.
No system is perfect and never will be, but ours right now is in an utter state of chaos which all of us already are fully aware of when we turn on the TV every night.
I wished I could say a lot of the bad guys I dealt with were deterred by prison...most are not. Many have family and friends in prison and really don't seem to mind it or really care about going back..."three hots and a cot".
Then there were "the others". Ones you knew had only two roads in their life; the penetentiary or the cemetery. These people were beyond redemption or rehabilitation. Looking into their eyes was like looking into an abyss. To me, these are the type that capital punishment (not life in prison) was designed specifically for. Notable examples: Charles Manson, Albert Fish, Jeffrey Dahmer, the list goes on. For everyone of the names I just mentioned, there are hundreds more.
A lot of these types of people come up for parole to be released back into society...some get it. Some go back to old habits as soon as they get it. In Japan, there isn't that problem.
You might want to read some of the articles I've read over the years about death row in Japan...it isn't death row here which is a five star hotel by comparison. If you are to meet the hangman there, they don't sugar coat it and treat you as little more that subhuman dirt. Such knowledge gets out into their society and has a deterrent value all its own.
Sorry for the long, drawn out "War and Peace" here.
When the UK had capital punishment, the Judge effectively stated that you had "three clear Sundays" then the following Monday would be the execution date. The last Official Hangman, Albert Pierpointe had it to a fine art. 12 seconds from their cell to the dropping of the trapdoor, and death was effectively instantaneous as the neck was broken in the drop. He owned a pub in London and when I was a grad student I had a beer or two there. Dave_n
Japan is 6500 miles outside my lane.
StrawHat
Member
It was in a Criminal Justice textbook. Possibly the only thing I remember from the book.
Kevin
Definitely a topic that is dividing the membership!
Sadly, our society is in the process of either excusing criminal behavior or deflecting who is responsible for the exhibited behavior.
Please remember that the current liberal trend is to excuse criminal behavior while outlawing self-defense! Definitely, we are witnessing a perversion of our legal system and it's tennents!
How many here could be comfortable with the potential punishment of death because you successfully defended yourself or loved ones? Sadly, this is a distinct possibility with how our society is perverting the concept of justice.
Personally, I support the concept of an eye-for-an-eye! I also believe that a person that commits the crime of premeditated murder should die in the same manner as their victim, except slower! Yes, this could be viewed as cruel and unusual punishment, but did anyone stand up for the deceased before their life was shortened?
In answer to my question about the possibility of being executed for successfully defending myself or a loved one ... I wouldn't want to willfully live in a society that rewards the guilty while punishing those that cherish life!
Honestly, I think Japan is following a reasonable policy towards the implementation of capital punishment.
Sadly, our society is in the process of either excusing criminal behavior or deflecting who is responsible for the exhibited behavior.
Please remember that the current liberal trend is to excuse criminal behavior while outlawing self-defense! Definitely, we are witnessing a perversion of our legal system and it's tennents!
How many here could be comfortable with the potential punishment of death because you successfully defended yourself or loved ones? Sadly, this is a distinct possibility with how our society is perverting the concept of justice.
Personally, I support the concept of an eye-for-an-eye! I also believe that a person that commits the crime of premeditated murder should die in the same manner as their victim, except slower! Yes, this could be viewed as cruel and unusual punishment, but did anyone stand up for the deceased before their life was shortened?
In answer to my question about the possibility of being executed for successfully defending myself or a loved one ... I wouldn't want to willfully live in a society that rewards the guilty while punishing those that cherish life!
Honestly, I think Japan is following a reasonable policy towards the implementation of capital punishment.
charlie sherrill
Member
On December 31, 1984, almost 39 years ago, Det. Sgt. Jackie Sherrill was shot and killed by a 48 year old man she believed was molesting his grandchildren. She had built a case on him and as she and other officers attempted to arrest him he managed to get one of their model 686's and shoot her through the heart. I was the patrol captain at the time and arrived on the scene about two minutes after she was killed. One of the three officers with her was putting the killer in the cruiser cage as I pulled up. The other officers, soon joined by paramedics, were giving her medical aid. When I saw what had happened I told the officer who was with the prisoner to get him out of there. I didn't want to lose it and do something when I knew I had to go pick my kids up. I won't go into the sadness that immediately started when I realized the mother of my three year old daughter and nine month old son was dead. The killer was a frequent flyer and a convicted sex offender who had been in and out of jail all of his adult life. I found out later he said some pretty nasty things about her right after they subdued him. He had no remorse then or later at his trial. He was found guilty and sentenced to death. His case was appealed to the Mississippi State Supreme Court and sent back to the Circuit Court for re-sentencing. He was then sentenced to life in prison. Had he lived long enough he could have possibly got out on parole. The reasoning of the State Supreme Court was that he was sentenced for killing a police officer and it was doubtful he knew she was an officer because she was in plain clothes. She was wearing a gun and a badge and he knew her because of a previous incident. The three officers with her were all in uniform. The DA trying the case failed to get this info on the record. My first thought when I heard this was it is now open season on any plainclothes officer. The killer died in prison 18 years later. No one contacted me and told me about it. I found out he was dead from one of his relatives ( a very nice person) a few months after he died. I called the state prison and asked why the victim's family had not been notified. The answer I got from the woman at the prison was "we don't got to tell you nuthing". I helped a friend get elected to the State Senate and he pushed a bill through where now they do have to tell us "nuthing". I was hoping the death sentence would hold but never imagined it would end up like it did. My family and I have been living with this for almost four decades. My children didn't have their mother growing up, she never saw her beautiful grandchildren and the things they have accomplished, and they never got to meet her. I wonder every day what it would have been like had she lived. The killer died in prison after 18 years, probably much sooner than if he had waited for that death sentence to be carried out. He spent most of his time in a small cell with a concrete slab for a mattress because he was a troublemaker. His family refused to claim his body and he is buried on the prison grounds. I am firmly convinced that the legal system cares more about the offenders than the victims.
LVSteve
Member
If you mean the legal process in Japan operates on the "We arrested you, so you must be guilty. Now confess" principle, I agree. They start there, and should you not confess, stuff goes downhill pretty sharpish. The comments made by Carlos Ghosn of Nissan fame on his treatment by the Japanese authorities make interesting reading. I seem to recall an interview about it either by AP or BBC news.
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That's the point. The existence of either capital punishment or life imprisonment as possibilities do not prevent that first incident of murder, although proper implementation of either can prevent a second.
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I have a fairly dim view of qualified immunity, especially when it comes to judges and politicians. I have nothing against judges, but when they rule plainly contrary to established case law, they really need to be held accountable. There is a huge difference in my book between judgement call and just plain ignored what was required. Current 2A cases come to mind.
Anyway, being accountable for your mistakes is fundamental to any human society, regardless of the culture.
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we have the right to a "speedy" trial, but there is no guarantee about anything after that. If there were an established timeline that was followed no matter what, I think it would make a huge difference.
I understand about errors in the past, especially forensic/DNA, but with what we know now, a murder committed today shouldn't be a 3 decade process to execution.
You could just as easily argue that an inmate in limbo not knowing their future vis a vis execution vs life in prison IS cruel and unusual punishment.
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The Last Standing Knight
Member
And they are not the only "free" country whose justice system behaves that way. From what I have studied over the years, many follow that philosophy of guilty until proven innocent.
Old Arkansawyer
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Charlie, I am sorry for you losing your wife and your childern
growing up without their mother.
In most cases I am not for the death penalty, but, in this case
where there is zero doubt as to guilt, an eye for an eye.
CAJUNLAWYER
Member
The US Fifth Circuit COurt of Appeals is the most conservative circuit in the country. And the below decision is why I will not support the death penalty
Death sentence overturned in Metarie double murder | Courts | nola.com
I've been in that public defender's shoes before and the magnitude of work involved in defending one of these coupled with the total abject lack of resources and funding is why I quit defending them as I could not in good conscience participate in such a charade.
Death sentence overturned in Metarie double murder | Courts | nola.com
I've been in that public defender's shoes before and the magnitude of work involved in defending one of these coupled with the total abject lack of resources and funding is why I quit defending them as I could not in good conscience participate in such a charade.
Charlie, your wife's murder has come up in discussions like these every now and then on the forum over the years. I always feel — well I can't say "feel" because I could never truly feel it — always think what an awful, devastating tragedy for your children and for you. Especially for you. That you were able to continue on with life for decades, that you were able to continue to be a good father, a good LEO, a good man, is a testament to your character as a human being. The world is better for your presence.
Much respect.
I think other Nissan executives resented him and plotted his downfall.
The Japanese have a proverb: The nail that sticks out will get hammered down, and Ghosin, wildly successful and popular, regarded for many years as the faltering Nissan's savior, stuck out. Also, from what I've read, a very arrogant man and something of a tyrant.
Anyway, I am glad he successfully snuck himself out of Japan. Perhaps because I was foreigner in Japan as well, I felt considerable sympathy for him when he was arrested and held.
The point about the Japanese not having the freedoms we do is quite true, both in law and in custom. But their system works very well for them. (E.g., our per capita murder rate is 14 times higher than theirs.) Like our country, they are a democracy. They collectively choose their way to live.
As we say here, different strokes for different folks.
Much respect.
I, too, thought Carlos Ghosin was railroaded. I think he likely broke the law by using Nissan funds for personal purposes — like a villa in Brazil, I think it was — but I also think using company funds for personal purposes, while not on Ghosin's scale, perhaps, while illegal is also not that unusual in Japan.
I think other Nissan executives resented him and plotted his downfall.
The Japanese have a proverb: The nail that sticks out will get hammered down, and Ghosin, wildly successful and popular, regarded for many years as the faltering Nissan's savior, stuck out. Also, from what I've read, a very arrogant man and something of a tyrant.
Anyway, I am glad he successfully snuck himself out of Japan. Perhaps because I was foreigner in Japan as well, I felt considerable sympathy for him when he was arrested and held.
The point about the Japanese not having the freedoms we do is quite true, both in law and in custom. But their system works very well for them. (E.g., our per capita murder rate is 14 times higher than theirs.) Like our country, they are a democracy. They collectively choose their way to live.
As we say here, different strokes for different folks.
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LVSteve
Member
If I'm reading the article correctly and assuming it contains most of the relevant detail, it strikes me he was convicted on the uncorroborated statements of a co-conspirator. I thought that was a bit of a no-no in this day and age, or maybe LA hasn't caught up yet.
meaneyedcatz
Member
Interesting concept. After all, the murderer didn't give the victim any advance notice.
I read about a murder in Pakistan which was committed at a party on Fri. Trial was held on Sat. and execution was carried out on Sun. Talk about swift justice!
Just one of many reasons I'm glad I don't live in Pakistan!
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