FACTORY vs.RELOADS

[rbswede]

Here is my question? Is it better to use factory ammo for carry or your own reload. I have had a couple of different opinions on this from personel to legal. Just wondering what any of you all think? Thanks

 

[hatt]

Let the storm begin.

I carry factory, since I don't reload. If I had trusted reloads, I'd carry those too. A lot of the negative points are overblown. No one has ever showed a clear case where reloads were the determining factor. Of course where you live may be important.

 

[Bob R]

I carry reloads.

I carry a 10mm so I want to optimize my ammunition performance by getting it to the speed a 10mm is capable of doing. If I wanted to shoot the same bullet slower I would carry a 40 S&W.

bob

 

[feralmerril]

Although I reload I carry factory for defendse. If you were to have to defend yourself I suppose a lawyer in a lawsuite would make a big deal of you doing reloads and try to make it like you had a desire to bag someone with your intrest in guns etc. Frankly, overall I suppose I/we should/can trust factory over reloads.

 

[Moonman]

Factory loads for carry.

 

[Steve in Vermont]

Aside from the legal issue, my reloads are just as accurate, in some cases more so, than factory. If I were reloading for SD I'd triple check every load instead of double checking and would use new brass and bullets such as Hornady HP loading up into the +P range.

 

[TienLungTaoist]

Not to hijack the thread but I was not aware reloads had any legal issues. can someone explain?

 

[Silversmok3]

I dont reload...not yet anyways.


If I had a choice, I would carry a reliable reload just the same as I would carry factory ammo.

While Massad Ayoob & others are trying to be helpfully candid in stating that for the newbies to guns its a bad idea to carry 'Eds Secret Magic Reload Bullets';

we informed gun owners all must remember that regardless of what ammo is in the barrel once the trigger is pulled we should expect 110% to face some sort of legal challenge from the felon or his family/relatives/baby mommas/ex-wives/girlfriends-or if youre really unfortunate, his connected lawyer friends or ACLU pals.

In case anyone thinks im playing armchair lawyer, let me post some examples here from the NRA defense fund website.

ARIZONA

Roger Barnett (Arizona). Counsel for Mr. Barnett informed in a letter of April 14, 2009, that this is an appeal to the U.S. Court of Appeals for the 9th Circuit from a civil trial where damages were awarded against Mr. Barnett.

He encountered 20 illegal aliens on his ranch crossing into Arizona from Mexico. He held them for the Border Patrol. The Border Patrol arrested them and took them back to Mexico. Activists on behalf of illegal aliens filed a civil lawsuit. The jury rejected most claims but found against Mr. Barnett for assault and for infliction of emotional distress. The U.S. District Court judge refused to give a selfdefense instruction and a limiting instruction on the infliction of emotional distress claim. The case is on appeal.


KENTUCKY

1Lt. Michael Behenna (Kentucky & Iraq). First Lieutenant Behenna was a platoon leader in Iraq with the 101st Airborne Division. On April 21, 2008, his platoon was hit by an explosion that killed two of his soldiers and seriously wounded two soldiers. He detained a suspected Al Qaeda member. During the interrogation the suspect threw a rock that missed 1st Lt. Behennas head and moved toward him. Fearing for his life, First Lieutenant Behenna fired twice and killed the suspect. In July 2008 he was charged with premeditated murder. The government claimed the suspect was executed and that the path of the bullets into the body did not support self-defense. The government claimed it had no exculpatory evidence. He was convicted of assault and unpremeditated murder. However, it was subsequently revealed that Dr. Herbert MacDonnell, a government witness, concluded that the path of the bullets was consistent with self-defense. However, motions for a new trial based on the exculpatory evidence were denied. First Lieutenant Behenna was initially sentenced on March 20, 2007, to 25 years. The sentence was subsequently reduced to 15 years. The case was appealed to the U.S. Army Court of Criminal Appeals. The main issue was that favorable exculpatory forensic evidence was withheld that collaborated his claim of self-defense. Nonetheless, the court affirmed the conviction on July 21, 2011. An appeal is planned to the U.S. Court of Appeals for the Armed Forces.


The case that follows is intriguing, because in a reverse of the pattern he was first sued then lost his guns via administrative police action without a shot fired due to his neighbors 'feeling afraid'.


John DiPiero (Massachusetts). His license to carry a firearm and his firearm identification card were summarily suspended because the police chief deemed him to be an improper person. His firearms were taken from him. This unfavorable decision was based on a report that Mr. DiPiero acted in a confrontational manner with a neighbor and family members. The dispute arose over the ownership and tenancy of real property. The dispute over the property resulted in a civil court action. No criminal charges were filed. The complainants stated Mr. DiPiero owned firearms and they were afraid of him. An appeal from the revocation and seizure of firearms was filed in the district court. The court held that Mr. DiPiero failed to prove that the decision of the police chief was arbitrary, capricious, or an abuse of discretion. An appeal was filed in the superior court on March 24, 2011. Now that the Second Amendment is binding on the states, the right to keep and bear arms cannot be reduced to an administrative privilege that can be summarily suspended or revoked at any time based on the flimsiest of evidence.

The rest of the cases are found here:Civil Rights Legal Defense Fund - Current Litigation

Bottom line, carry whatever you feel will get the job done because either way odds are you'll be on the hook in civil court fighting for your life back post-shooting.I cant see a trial lawyer for a greedy ex wife or anti-gun organization giving you a pass because you used factory ammo.

 

[Silversmok3]

Not to hijack the thread but I was not aware reloads had any legal issues. can someone explain?

Ah you posted as I typed the last response.

The legal issue is if you make your own rounds, an agressive lawyer for either the Prosecution and /or the inevitable civil suit to follow will say that you used 'special secret super-lethal bullets' that you cooked up in your basement, which shows that you 'clearly' were a homicidal head case.

The message the pros put out is that you should use factory ammo or ammo that your local police use, so as to avoid that line of questioning.Of course this advice doesn't help if you carry a different caliber than the police, or if you have a gun with a hard to find ammo type that isn't made at factories in great quantities.

Plus, as I stated in my last post....I cannot see a vicious attorney giving you a pass because you used the same round the cops did. They'll just as easily say you were an irresponsible fool because you choose to carry law enforcement rounds when you ARENT a sworn officer.

Either way, factory or reloaded odds are you're going to court.

 

[WR Moore]

Doesn't ANYBODY search for previous threads on any subject?

The main area where reloads/handloads can come back and bite you are in close range affairs where gunshot residue can become an issue. The normal practice in those cases, where testing is actually performed (which isn't as prevelent as TV would have you believe), is for the lab to check brand and bullet weight and pull/purchase exemplar factory ammunition for testing. Since the cannister powders available for reloading aren't the same powders as the factories use, different residue patterns can result.

Now where the real problem comes up is on documentation of differences. If the factories make changes, it's reflected in the records they keep of ammunition lot numbers. Ideally, the lab exemplars come from the same lot as your ammunition. If not, a disinterested third party can be brought to court to document the differences and explain the different test results.

Your records, if any, are not those of a disinterested party and may not be admissible. They weren't in Bias vs New Jersey(? not entirely sure of the state). The state I live in had a case some years back where an off-duty LEO was convicted over gunshot residue issues on factory ammunition used in a contact distance shooting. During the appeal, the factory explained that the lab used a different lot of ammo that used different powder, resulting in the incorrect residue results. Conviction overturned.

Darn near every round I shoot on my own is a reload. I carry factory. Back when I started reloading, it was comparitively easy to better factory ammo performance and there was reason to roll your own for defensive use. That isn't the case anymore. Factory ammo is a whole lot cheaper than attorney's fees. As the two guys who posted while I type note, you'll still need an attorney, but there's no reason to make his job harder and your bill higher.

 

[TienLungTaoist]

Ah you posted as I typed the last response.

The legal issue is if you make your own rounds, an agressive lawyer for either the Prosecution and /or the inevitable civil suit to follow will say that you used 'special secret super-lethal bullets' that you cooked up in your basement, which shows that you 'clearly' were a homicidal head case.

The message the pros put out is that you should use factory ammo or ammo that your local police use, so as to avoid that line of questioning.Of course this advice doesn't help if you carry a different caliber than the police, or if you have a gun with a hard to find ammo type that isn't made at factories in great quantities.

Plus, as I stated in my last post....I cannot see a vicious attorney giving you a pass because you used the same round the cops did. They'll just as easily say you were an irresponsible fool because you choose to carry law enforcement rounds when you ARENT a sworn officer.

Either way, factory or reloaded odds are you're going to court.

Yes I saw your post and I just wanted more info. I wasnt sure if it was a law or just something a lawyer could use as leverage. Thanks for the reply.To me a gun is a last resort where I consider my life or that of an other is in danger. I wont drawl until ready to shoot etc. Worst case Id rather defend myself in court than end up 6 foot under because of some dirt bag, reloads or not. I carry a 44mag so Even using factory ****ty rounds it will be super insane basement strong.lol

 

[Kanewpadle]

There aren't too many documented cases of attorney's attacking the use of handloads. But it is a possibility.

I don't use handloads and never will.

Here's one documented case.
Handloads for self-defense: the Daniel Bias case | American Handgunner | Find Articles

 

[Hook686]

I reload but carry factory loads. Lawyers have nothing to do with that decision. I have experienced a squib load and several crimp jumps with my light weight revolvers with my reloads, but never same with factory loads. At the range it can be tolerated. In a serious situation I am unwilling to tolerate same.

 

[thndrchiken]

I dont reload...not yet anyways.


If I had a choice, I would carry a reliable reload just the same as I would carry factory ammo.

While Massad Ayoob & others are trying to be helpfully candid in stating that for the newbies to guns its a bad idea to carry 'Eds Secret Magic Reload Bullets';

we informed gun owners all must remember that regardless of what ammo is in the barrel once the trigger is pulled we should expect 110% to face some sort of legal challenge from the felon or his family/relatives/baby mommas/ex-wives/girlfriends-or if youre really unfortunate, his connected lawyer friends or ACLU pals.

In case anyone thinks im playing armchair lawyer, let me post some examples here from the NRA defense fund website.

ARIZONA

Roger Barnett (Arizona). Counsel for Mr. Barnett informed in a letter of April 14, 2009, that this is an appeal to the U.S. Court of Appeals for the 9th Circuit from a civil trial where damages were awarded against Mr. Barnett.

He encountered 20 illegal aliens on his ranch crossing into Arizona from Mexico. He held them for the Border Patrol. The Border Patrol arrested them and took them back to Mexico. Activists on behalf of illegal aliens filed a civil lawsuit. The jury rejected most claims but found against Mr. Barnett for assault and for infliction of emotional distress. The U.S. District Court judge refused to give a selfdefense instruction and a limiting instruction on the infliction of emotional distress claim. The case is on appeal.


KENTUCKY

1Lt. Michael Behenna (Kentucky & Iraq). First Lieutenant Behenna was a platoon leader in Iraq with the 101st Airborne Division. On April 21, 2008, his platoon was hit by an explosion that killed two of his soldiers and seriously wounded two soldiers. He detained a suspected Al Qaeda member. During the interrogation the suspect threw a rock that missed 1st Lt. Behennas head and moved toward him. Fearing for his life, First Lieutenant Behenna fired twice and killed the suspect. In July 2008 he was charged with premeditated murder. The government claimed the suspect was executed and that the path of the bullets into the body did not support self-defense. The government claimed it had no exculpatory evidence. He was convicted of assault and unpremeditated murder. However, it was subsequently revealed that Dr. Herbert MacDonnell, a government witness, concluded that the path of the bullets was consistent with self-defense. However, motions for a new trial based on the exculpatory evidence were denied. First Lieutenant Behenna was initially sentenced on March 20, 2007, to 25 years. The sentence was subsequently reduced to 15 years. The case was appealed to the U.S. Army Court of Criminal Appeals. The main issue was that favorable exculpatory forensic evidence was withheld that collaborated his claim of self-defense. Nonetheless, the court affirmed the conviction on July 21, 2011. An appeal is planned to the U.S. Court of Appeals for the Armed Forces.


The case that follows is intriguing, because in a reverse of the pattern he was first sued then lost his guns via administrative police action without a shot fired due to his neighbors 'feeling afraid'.


John DiPiero (Massachusetts). His license to carry a firearm and his firearm identification card were summarily suspended because the police chief deemed him to be an improper person. His firearms were taken from him. This unfavorable decision was based on a report that Mr. DiPiero acted in a confrontational manner with a neighbor and family members. The dispute arose over the ownership and tenancy of real property. The dispute over the property resulted in a civil court action. No criminal charges were filed. The complainants stated Mr. DiPiero owned firearms and they were afraid of him. An appeal from the revocation and seizure of firearms was filed in the district court. The court held that Mr. DiPiero failed to prove that the decision of the police chief was arbitrary, capricious, or an abuse of discretion. An appeal was filed in the superior court on March 24, 2011. Now that the Second Amendment is binding on the states, the right to keep and bear arms cannot be reduced to an administrative privilege that can be summarily suspended or revoked at any time based on the flimsiest of evidence.

The rest of the cases are found here:Civil Rights Legal Defense Fund - Current Litigation

Bottom line, carry whatever you feel will get the job done because either way odds are you'll be on the hook in civil court fighting for your life back post-shooting.I cant see a trial lawyer for a greedy ex wife or anti-gun organization giving you a pass because you used factory ammo.

This reply has absolutely nothing to do with the OP.

 

[chief38]

I do not carry hand loads because I use Buffalo Bore ammo for that purpose. If I were capable of duplicating their terrific self defense load, I would consider it. Their secret formula powders are at this time unduplicatable for hand loaders.

 

[hatt]

There aren't too many documented cases of attorney's attacking the use of handloads. But it is a possibility.

I don't use handloads and never will.

Here's one documented case.
Handloads for self-defense: the Daniel Bias case | American Handgunner | Find Articles

I've seen that case. Reloads saved that dude from a murder conviction. None of that has ever added up to anything other than he popped his wife in the head and had clever lawyers.

 

[Lost Lake]

This entire decision revolves around the idea of how much fodder you want to give the prosecution.

If you use hand reloads with extra power and bullets with exploding tips and they are dipped in poison and each bullet is engraved with "Die you worthless scum bag, I've been waiting to waste you!", do you think the prosecution will bring that little tidbit up in court???

Of course they will, just as they will bring up any little detail they can come up with. Trigger jobs, night sights, grip tape, weapon light, they can and will use anything at their disposal to paint as ugly a picture of your premeditated position of being a wacko prepared killer.

Hey, it doesn't have to be true! This is a court trial. They just have to convince 12 soccer moms that you are less than a poor helpless victim.

That said, I trust my reloads more than factory ammo, and it sure shoots better than factory. In my rifles I can group 5 rounds inside a dime at 100 yards, factory is well over an inch. But I'm not producing 10,000 rounds a minute. I custom create 1 round every 2 minutes.

I carry factory ammo for self defense. It will do the job.

And a comment about carrying a 44 magnum for SD: What will you say when your round goes through the bad guy and kills a kid behind him? I know, it can happen with any round at all, but my defense for using a .40 is that it is the approved carry weapon for all the police departments in my area.

You can bet a prosecutor will produce reams of evidence that the FBI, CIA, Military, Sheriff, and local PD have all rejected the 44 magnum as being far too powerful and the risk of collateral damage far too high to be used as a carry weapon. You'll just add one more hurdle to freedom trying to explain why you need a bazooka when the police carry a different gun.

 

[oldman45]

From years of experience, I can state that a good personal injury / wrongful death attorney will use any thing against you. There is a law firm in Louisiana that ONLY handles gunshot cses. No car accidents or other type. I got drug in on two of their cases and those guys are good at what they do, even if they are grabbing at straws. In one of the cases I was pulled on, they took boxes of rounds from the shooter's home for testing and they subpoened the sheriff's office for the reamaining rounds from the gun.

My personal choice for ammo is factory loads 100% of the time but there are reliable reloaders that will provide just as quality ammo, if not better. I really do not think my choice has anything to do with potential judical preceedings but moreso consistency in ammunition.

Something else to think about that could be more common of a problem is using reloads in a gun will void the warranty.

 

[WoodsCustom]

Like anyone, If the time comes that I have to fire my weapon in personal defense, I want every edge I can have and not go to jail. I carry Personal Defense loads that say Personal Defense on the current factory box.

No exotic ammo, no hunting ammo, no handloads.

WC

 

[venomballistics]

I carry a 45 auto ... if we look at most of the factory ammo for SD, its based upon ye olde WW1 and on 230G RN. while it functions well in the gun, I dont care for its function in front of the gun. I favor a 200G to 230G TC flat point, which seems a bit lacking in the market. thus, I carry both.

 

[Rule 303]

I use the same kind of Factory Ammo our local Police use.
Because I know that if the Police Use It, it must be effective and safe. Exactly what I will tell the Grand Jury or the Petit Jury if it goes that far.

Put the Facts in Your Favor if you have to use deadly force.

Rule 303

 

[oldman45]

I carry a 45 auto ... if we look at most of the factory ammo for SD, its based upon ye olde WW1 and on 230G RN. while it functions well in the gun, I dont care for its function in front of the gun. I favor a 200G to 230G TC flat point, which seems a bit lacking in the market. thus, I carry both.

I have been shooting a .45 longer than most here have lived and I disagree with your assessment of available rounds or even the comparison between current and WWI ammo.

The rounds commerically available now is far and away above the ammo of yesteryear.

As to SD loads, have you tried any Guard Dog ammo in .45acp? It is vastly different in every way from any other, even if it is 165 gr moving at 1,140fps and will feed just as a JHP.

 

[Steve in Vermont]

I spoke earlier regarding reloads for SD but didn't make it clear that I don't carry them or recommend others do so, primarily for legal reasons. On the issue of trusting my reloads, I do and would not hesitate to depend on them in a SD situation.

 

[venomballistics]

I have been shooting a .45 longer than most here have lived and I disagree with your assessment of available rounds or even the comparison between current and WWI ammo.

The rounds commerically available now is far and away above the ammo of yesteryear.

As to SD loads, have you tried any Guard Dog ammo in .45acp? It is vastly different in every way from any other, even if it is 165 gr moving at 1,140fps and will feed just as a JHP.

I haven't gotten around to those yet ... I have yet to see them on a store shelf.
My statement is based upon observed tendencies of RN designs. They simply excell at bouncing around, which lends to it being part of a solution to guns with problematic feeding. Unfortunately they continue to display this trait down range in the form of deflection.
Flat points tend to reduce this issue. while a truncated cone flat point seems a sweet blend between reliability and penetration

 

[Wayne M]

Pretty much a good shoot is a good shoot and a bad shoot is a bad shoot....no matter what you shoot 'em with. Back in the day we were once told it would probably take 5K to get us out of a good shoot(civil suits and all)......and we were the police. With the legal profession what it is that figure is probably at least 20K+ today. Anyway, we carried ONLY factory ammo. Just make sure you don't shoot somebody reaching for a smoke, you'll be good with factory or handloads.

 

[Stophel]

It seems lawyers are more terrifying than armed robbers!

 

[mrerick]

Factory Loads...

I attended Massad Ayoob's LFI about 20 years ago.

His point on this issue was well taken.

During a civil or criminal trial, you will likely be examined about the type of ammo that was in your gun.

If you had reloads, and this is disclosed in court, the examining attorney will want to ask you about the process of making them.

Why do you reload, to save money? ("isn't my client's life worth 25 cents you saved?")

How do you go about reloading them ("So you sit for hours alone concentrating on making these things, knowing that you might use each one to kill somebody?")

Why you don't do what normal people do ("So, don't most people with guns just buy their ammo in the store?)


All of this goes to state of mind, and is likely to negatively influence a jury that has no real familiarity with firearms, and all sorts of exposure to the bad guys in the movies and on TV.

Carry factory loads and the risk of this course of questioning completely evaporates.

Marc

 

[Arizona5906]

I carry my own reloads. I load them on a single stage press and double check every step. There is one really big advantage to reloading your self defense ammo. If you buy premium self defense ammo such as Cor-Bon you will usually pay about $25 per box of 20 rounds. At that price most shooters will not shoot very many rounds to test the ammo in their carry weapon. In fact I know several people who have not tested their carry ammo at all because it's too expensive. I have shot about 200 rounds of my defense reloads through each of my carry guns. I think it is very important to verify that your carry ammo functions 100%.

 

[TienLungTaoist]

This entire decision revolves around the idea of how much fodder you want to give the prosecution.

If you use hand reloads with extra power and bullets with exploding tips and they are dipped in poison and each bullet is engraved with "Die you worthless scum bag, I've been waiting to waste you!", do you think the prosecution will bring that little tidbit up in court???

Of course they will, just as they will bring up any little detail they can come up with. Trigger jobs, night sights, grip tape, weapon light, they can and will use anything at their disposal to paint as ugly a picture of your premeditated position of being a wacko prepared killer.

Hey, it doesn't have to be true! This is a court trial. They just have to convince 12 soccer moms that you are less than a poor helpless victim.

That said, I trust my reloads more than factory ammo, and it sure shoots better than factory. In my rifles I can group 5 rounds inside a dime at 100 yards, factory is well over an inch. But I'm not producing 10,000 rounds a minute. I custom create 1 round every 2 minutes.

I carry factory ammo for self defense. It will do the job.

And a comment about carrying a 44 magnum for SD: What will you say when your round goes through the bad guy and kills a kid behind him? I know, it can happen with any round at all, but my defense for using a .40 is that it is the approved carry weapon for all the police departments in my area.

You can bet a prosecutor will produce reams of evidence that the FBI, CIA, Military, Sheriff, and local PD have all rejected the 44 magnum as being far too powerful and the risk of collateral damage far too high to be used as a carry weapon. You'll just add one more hurdle to freedom trying to explain why you need a bazooka when the police carry a different gun.

I carry a 44 mag but even if I carried a smaller gun I would not risk shooting at a bg with someone behind them. I train in accordance to my gun. I have been training in weapons use since I was 10yrs old. every weapon requires its unique use. the way I train with my gun includes hand to hand as well as close, legal range, combat. If I were ever to have to draw my gun I would probably not use it in any of the conventional shooting stances, since I dont train that way. Usually I train from a lower crouched position often used in MA after gettting out of the attackers line of attack (allowing me to choose the safest place to shoot from), shooting in an upward angle and giving me the possibility to spring forward and do what I need with my opponent (disarm him, or use as shield/distraction) much like I would a knife. I could go on and on explaining how my weapons technique would apply to limit collateral damage but its hard to explain physical technique. Not saying for someone who will stand and shoot a 44 might be a bad choice but honestly for the places I hang out at Im more likely to run into a bear than a bg but one gun fits all. (why I bought gun) my in city will be a sp101 or model 60 when I can get the money Posted this just so its known that i would most likely not shoot someone with a cannon who is standing with a kid behind him. I felt I was being called irresponsible and I dont feel that way. BTW I just got into short arms as a sd weapon so I have much to learn and need money to buy something smaller.

 

[Steve in Vermont]

I carry my own reloads. I load them on a single stage press and double check every step. There is one really big advantage to reloading your self defense ammo. If you buy premium self defense ammo such as Cor-Bon you will usually pay about $25 per box of 20 rounds. At that price most shooters will not shoot very many rounds to test the ammo in their carry weapon. In fact I know several people who have not tested their carry ammo at all because it's too expensive. I have shot about 200 rounds of my defense reloads through each of my carry guns. I think it is very important to verify that your carry ammo functions 100%.

I fire a few factory SD rounds each year but don't have the $ to use them for practice. I do, however, reload with Remington and Hornady bullets and by adjusting the weight of the bullets and powder loads can come very close to factory specs.