Fatal Shooting During CCW Class

[federali]

My morning paper reports an accidental fatal shooting at a CCW class being held at a the KayJay gun shop in Amelia, Ohio.

This is a wakeup call for firearms instructors. In my opinion, somebody has to be in charge.

 

[Ozark Marine]

Newbies scare me more than old uncle ho's boys ever did. Well not really.
Was this in the class room or range?

 

[Mainsail]

This is a link to the story

This is a link to another story.

Very sad news.

 

[Old cop]

A newbie mistake I see often is keeping the finger in or on the trigger while changing mags and dropping the slide to reengage the target.

 

[crazyphil]

I would like to see as many details as you might have available.
Obviously someone was violating one or more of the safety rules.
As someone who has conducted hundreds of concealed weapon license
classes, I just thank God I never had a serious problem. You have to
preach and enforce safety from the beginning to the end of class.

 

[Ozark Marine]

I watched both videos. Clearing a weapon drill? Using live ammo? Kinda dumb. That instructor is in deep trouble.

 

[okiegtrider]

Tragic. Sad.

Lot of stories about the shooting online, this one seems to offer some detail and makes very clear that the victim was loved and valued by his friends and neighbors.

Neighbors 'heartbroken' by accidental fatal shooting of gun shop owner | Local News - WLWT Home

Browsing the website for the shop, it looks like the mom and pop kind of shop like so many of us love to haunt. Makes the whole thing all the more heartbreaking. It won't be at all surprising if someone pops up in this thread that knows this shop and the man. RIP
KayJay Gun Shop and Dog River Tactical - KayJay Gun Shop

 

[OKFC05]

Accident?
Handing the gun and LIVE AMMO in a classroom? Is that what we are seeing?
NEGLIGENCE. NRA Instructor training and common sense says no live ammo in classroom, ever. Save it for the range.
In Oklahoma, an instructor could be charged with negligent homicide, having been CLEET certified and given a lesson plan specifying his responsibility to insure no live ammo except on the range. In addition to sign on classroom door, I always ask each student as they enter and inspect every bag. I found more than one violation and cured it before they got in. Assume somebody there is going to act stupid if you give them a chance.

 

[Doug M.]

This could not have happened without a staggering level of negligence. I have had more than one instructor at various types of classes tell us that EVERYONE PRESENT is a safety officer, and has the right and duty to call an immediate halt to action. This is why.

 

[Targets Guy]

Such a tragedy. Should never have happened. Never. According to the link he was in another room and the bullet passed through a wall to strike his neck. Was no one supervising?

 

[M1A]

I am surprised this doesn't happen more often. There is money to be made teaching CC.
I have seen places that take everybody. Some folks are not teachable, and a risk to the class and themselves. This lack of aptitude, if not immediately obvious, will be, before live range time.
To make matters worse some are passed, and out there with loaded firearms.

 

[Fastbolt]

Investigators told WLWT TV that another class member discharged a handgun while practice weapon malfunction drills. The bullet passed through a wall, striking Baker in the next room.

Damn, damn, damn.

I've taught cops and private citizens in classroom and range environments. Live ammunition and gun handling belongs downrange, on the controlled range environment. Clearing barrels belong outside the classroom, too.

Hindsight is always 20/20, but it's not unreasonable to wonder why Dummy rounds weren't being used if "malfunction drills" were being taught.

Damn. Tragic.

 

[TTSH]

Clearing a weapon drill? Using live ammo? Kinda dumb.

Understatement of the day. I can't even image that taking place.

 

[Rastoff]

A newbie mistake I see often is keeping the finger in or on the trigger while changing mags and dropping the slide to reengage the target.

Newbie mistake? I wish that were true. If it were, that would mean that people got trained and learned from it. Alas, that is not the case.

Most shooters I meet, who consider themselves experienced, make this same mistake. Keeping the trigger finger on the trigger is quite common. It's the number one error and is the most common cause of negligent discharges. It's not relegated to new shooters.

 

[Wise_A]

There is money to be made teaching CC.

There really isn't, if done correctly.

To start off with, you need to rent or secure a space. To my mind, that means a range with some plan to contain all that flying lead.

Then you need to hire some Range Safety Officers (NRA-Certified). One for every student on the firing line. So you can have 5 for a class of 15 students, but that means that you work in three relays, which takes time. Figure on $25 an hour for these people, at least. So for a class of 15 that charges $200/ea that gives each student 2 hours of range instruction, you're looking at $750 of your $3000 gross going to RSOs, one way or another. A scant one hour brings that down to $375, or more than 10% of gross.

Then there's materials. Targets, printouts/workbooks, your own demonstration firearms, snapcaps for everybody, etc etc. In a concealed carry class, you might also want to hire a local lawyer to explain the various foibles of local law.

Now you need to buy insurance. And your own continuing education.

You don't make a lot of money doing this. It's really hard to make it a full-time career. Most guys do it because they either genuinely enjoy it, or because they're tacticool commandos looking to show off. In my experience, it's all too often the latter.

Frankly, a CCW class taught by a gun shop always rubs me the wrong way. For one thing, there's a bit of a conflict of interest--"Your J-frame .38 Spl is insufficient, you need a Blasticool 3950 AMX!"--and for another, doing the class right requires throwing good business strategy right out the window. Not all shop owners are like that, but I can think of one shop in my area that offers "training" like that.

I have seen places that take everybody. Some folks are not teachable, and a risk to the class and themselves. This lack of aptitude, if not immediately obvious, will be, before live range time.
To make matters worse some are passed, and out there with loaded firearms.

100% agree. Although I hesitate to ever say somebody "passed".

 

[crazyphil]

I wanted to say it, but Wise A said it better.

 

[M1A]

There really isn't, if done correctly.

Bingo!
I do agree with all you've said. Been there. And I surely did not mean everybody. Nor this specific tragedy. My point is, that it is happening. Like most anything it just takes a few with the wrong priorities and lack of the necessary vigilance.

 

[MichiganScott]

My club holds about a half dozen classes each year. The instructors are all certified and volunteer their time. The local DA or one of his assistants give the law portion of the class for no cost to the club. They are also members. We make pretty good money off it, but all the expenses Wise_A mentioned are already covered except for books and other teaching material. The class fee covers that.

We have had members get certified and try to use the facilities for their own purposes. They very quickly lose their membership. If it's not a club function, the insurance will not cover it. We run one instructor per student on the line plus the range master. We have been in existence for over 60 years without a single gun related injury and intend to keep it that way.

 

[Rastoff]

There really isn't [any money], if done correctly.

Yes. Last year I ran at a loss. This year I will be in the black, but not by much. There are some simple rules if you want to be a real firearms instructor:

• If you think you shoot too much, become and instructor.
• If you think you have too much money, become an instructor.

You don't get to shoot like you used to because you're constantly preparing for a class or teaching.

To start off with, you need to rent or secure a space. To my mind, that means a range with some plan to contain all that flying lead.

Then you need to hire some Range Safety Officers (NRA-Certified). One for every student on the firing line.

The NRA rules are one certified instructor for every two students on the firing line. For the Basic Pistol class I limit my class size to 4. For the CCW classes I limit the size to 8 with never more than 4 shooting at any one time.

I wouldn't like to have a class with 40 students in it. You lose the opportunity for personal instruction. Guys that are just in this to make money burn me. They're giving students the false belief that they're receiving quality instruction. I'd rather make $0 and give quality instruction.

I'm reconsidering my price structure. I'm more interested in promoting quality shooting than money.

 

[TexasRaider]

I go shooting with about maybe three or four people I trust. Period. I used to teach, but not anymore. I hate to say it, but I just don't trust many folks anymore due to too many close calls I've had at the hands of both civilians and LEO's.

There are a few reasons why I think a certain segment of the gun community can't be trusted. The first is that the explosion in firearms interest fueled by video games has created a culture of immaturity that has now mixed with the firearms hobby. I sound like an old man, but in the early 90's and going further back, folks interested in the firearms hobby who spent a lot of time and money on it acted like adults for the most part.

But now I see many gun owners who act like the worst of the drone owners; they fly over other's property taking photos and laughing while buzzing the other guy. If you call them out, you get a profanity laced tirade because they simply believe they can do whatever the heck they want to because....well, just because they want to. I see the same mentality in the gun world now, and it frightens me.

Many folks (all ages, sadly) are treating guns like toys, laughingly running their mouths about blasting people's brains out, tattooing their firearms with death's skull and other pathetic "Kill 'em all!" mentality slogans, logos and images. It's like the sick torture porn trash of the Saw movies has moved into the firearms world and there is a big 8th grade level race to see who can be the most vulgar, violent or shocking, or who can make their guns look the most like something the grim reaper would carry.

I appreciate much of the new blood that is now supporting the NRA, and I think there is a stronger opposition to gun control than ever before, specifically due to the fact that more folks have access to and are using guns. That's the good part.

The bad part is there are so many folks today who simply cannot be taught, will not be taught, do not critically think and associate guns with what they see on TV, the movies or some stupid video game and simply have no place either teaching, selling, carrying, shooting or being around firearms. Period. They have a narcissistic, childish world view that drives them to firearms to get validation and live out fantasies, and they just don't want to bother to "get it" when it comes to being a grown up with guns. I think that's how things like the above story happen. No one was acting 'the adult' there.

I don't know the specifics of the aforementioned shooting, but if live ammo was being used in a class room and drills were being done, it's not only on the instructor but the shooter and every other doofus in that room to scream "STOP!" when the first live round was observed. It's like the video awhile back of the idiots in a shooting competition going through stages of orange construction nets while another person was downrange tending targets. That simply CANNOT happen. Only fools that are more interested in 'playing' and not paying attention (or taking personal responsibility) create situations like that.

I've been bladed so many times at public ranges, sporting goods stores or gun shops that I simply refuse to patronize them anymore. In an age where every half cocked cluck with a YouTube channel that shoots into jello, denim and wet newspapers thinks he's Wyatt Earp, Dirty Harry, a CSI analyst and an investigative journalist combined, firearms have now become to many (not all, but many) playthings used to make themselves feel like urban ninjas while they cosplay their favorite character from Grand Theft Auto V or Mortal Kombat X. I hear tragic stories like that one and it makes me want to scream "GROW THE EFF UP!" to a large part of the firearms community.

The biggest enemy of the 2nd Amendment is not Pelosi, Reid, Obama or Bloomberg. It's folks in our own house that pull stunts like this, or get themselves shot giving fully automatic Uzi's to little girls or idiots marching into coffee shops with M4's on their back and a thigh holster sporting a 20 round 9mm pistol. We're one Supreme Court justice away from losing a lot and the media is, more than ever, full throttle lying their rearends off about gunowners and firearms. Which is why things like this really, really hurt us all. It's not just a shooting accident, it's a self-inflicted wound on every law abiding, decent gun owner. And things like this just hand them a fully loaded ammo belt to use on us.

Sorry for the long winded rant, but stories like this just slice a chunk out of guts....