FBI Load and Over-Penetration

[aterry33]

I am curious if anyone has ever heard concerns about the FBI Load (38SP 158LSWCHP 158GR+P) and overpenetration on human targets? I have never heard of any but curious.

 

[APS]

No, but there's the chance of overpenetration with any hollowpoint. You really need to worry more about the misses.
I do recall some manufacturer's FBI loads would penetrate more than others depending upon the hardness of the lead.

 

[Wayne Dobbs]

In torso shots with the Winchester and Remington 158 LHP +P loads the performance was typically full penetration front to back or side to side with the expanded bullet stopping under the skin on the off side, in the clothing on the off side or laying on the ground on the off side. It has proven to be a very reliable performer in all respects. This is based on literally dozens of cases in the Dallas area and I'm sure the same was observed in Miami, Chicago and the other locales that adopted this load.

 

[pff]

No, but there's the chance of overpenetration with any hollowpoint. You really need to worry more about the misses.

Just so.

Much is made of this point, ignoring that a load that doesn't exit on frontal shot to a 90 lb tweaker won't even get through the ribs of a 300 lb foundry worker.

Add in less optimum angles and intermediate barriers like arms.



Like APS said, worry more about shot placement.

[edit, to add:] Like Mr Dobbs says, exits from hollowpoints rarely have enough energy to even break the skin of someone behind the intended.

Regards,

Pat

 

[Stu Honea]

You know,I've been using the Gold Dot 135+P in my snubs for a couple of years now and they are certainly performers.I even carry them in the short magnums.
But,when I think back to the early 70's through the late eighties and remember the shootings with the old FBI loads,there's no doubt that they put bad guys down pretty darned effectively,even from snubs,whether they expanded well or not.
Lately,I've been considering just going back to them and stocking the one load for all .38 usage. There's only so much you can do with a handgun load and I've never had any complaints,nor heard any,about these loads by anyone who's used them for real.

 

[photoman]

You know,I've been using the Gold Dot 135+P in my snubs for a couple of years now and they are certainly performers.I even carry them in the short magnums.
But,when I think back to the early 70's through the late eighties and remember the shootings with the old FBI loads,there's no doubt that they put bad guys down pretty darned effectively,even from snubs,whether they expanded well or not.
Lately,I've been considering just going back to them and stocking the one load for all .38 usage. There's only so much you can do with a handgun load and I've never had any complaints,nor heard any,about these loads by anyone who's used them for real.

Unfortunately, I can't put much faith in the current 158gr LHP+P loads.

Remington has some real quality control issues with the load (consistently loading them too long). The Federal loads I've tried have been all right but, if I remember correctly, don't chrono near as fast as they once did. The Buffalo Bore loads are exceedingly hot (even the standard pressure ones kick like a mule).

Just be sure to test your loads if you end up going back to the LHP+P load.

 

[Stu Honea]

Unfortunately, I can't put much faith in the current 158gr LHP+P loads.

Remington has some real quality control issues with the load (consistently loading them too long). The Federal loads I've tried have been all right but, if I remember correctly, don't chrono near as fast as they once did. The Buffalo Bore loads are exceedingly hot (even the standard pressure ones kick like a mule).

Just be sure to test your loads if you end up going back to the LHP+P load.

Will do.I've been hearimg the same things elsewhere about the loads being somewhat watered down. I'm going to test some of the Federal's before I completely decide.looking for some Winchesters too. Thanks.Good advice.

 

[Old cop]

I used this load (it was standard issue) during my 30 yr. LEO career and can say without reservation they work just fine. I'm around to enjoy retirement and my grandkids, the badguys are not.

 

[Erich]

Gee, how many did you ice? I know a couple of cops who killed more than a couple people while on the job - SWAT snipers in a fairly big city. Never knew any who took out more than one with the FBI Load.

Anyway, back to the question at hand: I've worked on lots of handgun killing cases - including some where overpenetration proved dangerous to unintended targets - and would not expect overpenetration to be an issue with the FBI Load (given proper shot placement). Anything's possible, of course, but I've not seen .38 Special ball rounds tend to overpenetrate, and those big soft lead hollowpoints want to upset even if you just drop the bullet on the floor.

 

[Moonman]

I have an opinion that U.S. manufactured ammo by major corporations have been watered down a bit by their legal departments over the years. I see European ammo that's manufactured at higher standard velocities/pressures. Maybe its their testing and recording methods though. JMHO.

 

[Doc Watson]

We issued the blazer load of this ammo, it was a cost cutting thing at the time. Anyway, two of our officers shot a gun welding perp, one shot him in the hand disarming him on purpose, and almost the same time, the other officer center punched him. He survived, but died a year later of unrelate causes. Anyway when they picked him up to load him on the gurney, the one that center punched him fell out of his shirt, oh yeah, the guy who shot the gun out of his hand, both he and his partner were behind the bar and had good stable rests for them and their weapons.

 

[papajohn428]

I'll echo the warning about checking your ammo, Remington seems to be having QC issues with just about everything lately, but the last batch of their FBI load I tested performed quite well in wetpack and milk jugs.

 

[Stu Honea]

We issued the blazer load of this ammo, it was a cost cutting thing at the time. Anyway, two of our officers shot a gun welding perp, one shot him in the hand disarming him on purpose, and almost the same time, the other officer center punched him. He survived, but died a year later of unrelate causes. Anyway when they picked him up to load him on the gurney, the one that center punched him fell out of his shirt, oh yeah, the guy who shot the gun out of his hand, both he and his partner were behind the bar and had good stable rests for them and their weapons.

Interesting story Doc. Good to see you over here.You may remember me from TFF.I posted as DocH over there until Brownie shut it down. Hope things are good with you,sir.

 

[Stu Honea]

I'll echo the warning about checking your ammo, Remington seems to be having QC issues with just about everything lately, but the last batch of their FBI load I tested performed quite well in wetpack and milk jugs.

Good info papajohn.Thanks for posting that up,sir.

 

[Doc Watson]

thanks stu!

 

[Wayne Dobbs]

Erich,

Dallas PD had one street officer, during the 80s-90s that carried the issue Model 64 HB 4" with the service stocks. He was involved in six shootings and killed three with the +P LHP. He was a plain Jane dude that was pretty low key. He worked a really crappy area of Dallas and bad guys kept on acting up around him and getting themselves shot.

They had quite a few officers with multiple shootings, but this one sprang to mind when you asked about multiple shootings with that load. Many of the others with multiples were .357 Magnum carriers (or other Magnum calibers in revolvers) and the PD load for that was the Winchester 145 STHP, which works EXTREMELY well on hostile personnel.

 

[Erich]

Wow - I'm glad that I've got several boxes of it in the garage! Thanks, Wayne!

 

[Sebago Son]

I find the W-W loading to be the best, most consistent and accurate. Admittedly, I've not tried the Buffalo Bore offering.

Watch the crimp on the Federal 38G; their iteration of the "FBI Load". There were several lots of it floating around that had issues with bullets jumping the case and tying up the gun between round 3 and round 4.

Of late, it seems the biggest issue with any of the FBI loads from the Big Three (Rem-UMC, Win-Western, Federal) is FINDING IT. When you do, you'd swear that it was loaded with gold dust based upon the prices. I still have half of my last case of W-W that I bought for $10.99 a box.

Drew

 

[bassoneer]

I'll echo the warning about checking your ammo, Remington seems to be having QC issues with just about everything lately, but the last batch of their FBI load I tested performed quite well in wetpack and milk jugs.

That's a great photo, and it brings me back to some milk jug testing I did myself a few years ago. I tested the Buffalo Bore .38+P LHP that looked just like this Remington round. It did what rounds 1 and 3 (in the Remington photo) did and the mushroom sheared off. I counted that as a failure of the bullet because the sheared mushroom stopped in one of the first few jugs and the center core acted as a non-hollow point bullet and went straight through several more jugs. I figured that a lot of the impact energy was lost when the bullet fell apart and stopped any further testing with those rounds. I ended up with Speer Gold Dot Short Barrel because I've never had one disintegrate or shear into pieces during expansion and penetration - they seem to hold together very well. So...please let me know your thoughts on this. I'm not ready to be shot by any of these bullets - I'm sure they all work in that respect, but I'm just curious as to what you guys think about bullets that shatter/fragment/shear apart vs ones that stay intact and don't keep going through the target. By the way, on bullets 1 and 3 (Remington photo) that did shear the doughnut off, how deep did the center core penetrate through the jugs vs the doughnuts? Best wishes, and thanks again for the photo, B

 

[photoman]

I think the "donut" effect is a result of shooting into pure liquid. I wouldn't be too concerned about it. The actual street results for this load is well documented. I would use it with confidence.

The Gold Dot 135gr is an excellent choice also and would be more likely to perform well after barrier penetration.