FINAL DATA POST 217: How do you make a 9mm bullet act more like a .45

[rwsmith]

Time for phase 2....

I ordered some 9mm 158 grain SWCHPs last night. I decided to go with 158 gr so that I can have more complete load data with maximum loads listed for that weight. They are already HP, so I won't have to fool with modifying them, and they may be soft enough to expand.

I can't help but think that there is some untapped capability due to the construction of a semi vs a revolver, especially with the higher allowable pressure.


While I'm waiting I'm going to collect newspapers. I'll soak them and that will be a better media than the solid paper bundles I was using.

 

[Kiwi cop]

It is nonsense. Just Google it. Thousands of examples of people shot with 45 who continue to live. Some people shot multiple times. One good example is of a cop in MN who was shot 6 times in the face with a 45. He killed his adversary with a 9mm.

Sent from my XT1650 using Tapatalk

And Stacey Lim (LAPD) was shot in the heart with a full power .357 Magnum load and survived.

Back in the late 80's the FBI determined that the most reliable man stopper was a 10mm round at about 850 fps which lead directly to the .40 S&W round.

I wish someone would tell my department that the FBI theory has now been debunked. They still insist on a 148 gn 9mm load in a G17 where the barrel is optimised for 115-125 gn projectiles.

Accuracy is horrible.

 

[fredj338]

While I'm waiting I'm going to collect newspapers. I'll soak them and that will be a better media than the solid paper bundles I was using.

Dry paper is really hard on a bullet, doesnt tell you anything about expansion characteristics. Bullet companies used wetpack to test expansion for years prior to ballistic gel.

 

[Walkingwolf]

I ignore all the hype, and carry what I want to carry. And never lose sleep what someone else carries. Government set their own rules, doesn't concern me, unless they are wasting my money.

Depending on where, or what I am doing my carry varies, and so does caliber.

 

[franzas]

To Forrest-

I like the Idea of getting TC barrels to test the accuracy of pistol calibers. That would save a lot of time and bullets, since I can't shoot "regular" handguns decent off a bag. Plus, one day I'm on and one day I can't hold a group. The TC seems like it would negate most of this.

Thanks for the good suggestion.

 

[STORMINORMAN]

Perhaps your prayers have been answered...

I ordered some 9mm 158 grain SWCHPs last night. I decided to go with 158 gr so that I can have more complete load data with maximum loads listed for that weight. They are already HP, so I won't have to fool with modifying them, and they may be soft enough to expand.

I can't help but think that there is some untapped capability due to the construction of a semi vs a revolver, especially with the higher allowable pressure.


While I'm waiting I'm going to collect newspapers. I'll soak them and that will be a better media than the solid paper bundles I was using.

My inbox had an e-mail from Xtreme this a.m. with RN 165gr 9mm bullets ON SALE... Perhaps these may aid you in your heavier 9mm bullet quest?

Now you get to develop some load data...?

Cheers!

 

[PaPow]

OMG, my head hurts after reading all these opinions...lol
All i have to say is, why hit somebody with a prius when you can hit them with a tractor trailer truck (9mm vs 45)

 

[LAA]

Yesterday, my preference was to blowup one gallon milk jugs full of colored water, and caps tightly sealed......................with the 45 over the 9mm.

 

[rwsmith]

I got slowed down but here is my plan...

I hurt my back badly last week and I have hernia surgery, but I got a very nice batch of SWCHPs, but in 158 grain. I'm also saving up newsprint. When I recover from these two maladies I'll get some data and do some wet newsprint testing.

 

[358156hp]

This may be more ballistics/performance than actual reloading, but I've been doing some thinking.

A few .45 ACP facts:

Even .45s that don't expand are effective because of their size.

A .45 bullet weighing 230 grains is effective at 830 ft/sec.

Therefore:

The heaviest 9mm bullet that can be fired at 830 fps or higher, and was designed to expand at this velocity to about .45 in. dia. would most closely resemble performance in a .45 with a non expanding bullet. I believe that a 165 gr. bullet or maybe slightly heavier would be able to do this.


I think that this would also apply to .40 S&W in a 180 grain or slightly heavier, again, if it were designed to expand at mid-800 fps velocity.

Your hypothesis is flawed, and your conclusions are inaccurate.

But the 9mm bullet would need to expand to .452 before it reaches the target to have the same initial frontal impact area as 45 ball, and somehow its profile. Bullets don't necessarily expand to full diameter the instant they strike a soft target. From that point of view, it would also need to gain 65 grains in weight somehow to equal the 45s penetration in said soft target.

As for the 40 S&W, its tombstone will read something like "Here lies the 40 S&W, designed to equal the performance of the 45 ACP, and the convenience of the 9mm. It failed in both regards by only offering the major drawbacks of both cartridges with none of the benefits of either".

 

[rwsmith]

Thanks for your ideas....

Your hypothesis is flawed, and your conclusions are inaccurate.

But the 9mm bullet would need to expand to .452 before it reaches the target to have the same initial frontal impact area as 45 ball, and somehow its profile. Bullets don't necessarily expand to full diameter the instant they strike a soft target. From that point of view, it would also need to gain 65 grains in weight somehow to equal the 45s penetration in said soft target.

As for the 40 S&W, its tombstone will read something like "Here lies the 40 S&W, designed to equal the performance of the 45 ACP, and the convenience of the 9mm. It failed in both regards by only offering the major drawbacks of both cartridges with none of the benefits of either".

What you say is true, but the first few inches of penetration don't do serious (fatal) damage whether it's a big or small bullet. These bullets I'm using are very soft. The extra hard bullets I started with showed some (a little) expansion, one got to .45 size. I expect that these will expand like crazy. Maybe flatten into a coin shape.

 

[rwsmith]

Took 158 to the range, but.....

I STILL haven't gotten my surgery, my cardio dr. is checking me and taking his time.

I took the 158 gr lead HPs to the range last week for velocity testing and though the cartridges looked and plunked good, they wouldn't feed well in my guns and I wasn't able to fire the higher loadings. I'm going to try again.


Even if I succeed there, I'm still having problems with being able to determine what the max loadings are for the 165 and 158 gr bullets in 9mm. I called Alliant and they told me they just didn't test those bullets. I'll call the Accurate people and see if they have more data on the Acc #7 powder. Someone suggested that the Vihtvuori people might be helpful. If I can't find what I want with Alliant and Accurate, I'll try them and get some Vihta powder. I don't mind spending the extra dough since I have a specific goal.

Can I ask if any of you have Quickload software if you could run these loadings and come up with a theoretical max load?

9mm 158 gr. lead and 165 grain jacketed with Power Pistol, Acc #7 and whatever Vihtavuori powder would get the best velocities with this combo. That would at least give me a framework to work in.

I believe that I can get better results, but it's slow coming.

Oh, and when I get the velocity testing done, I'm going to test them in wet pulp. I only used the paper last time because it was what I could get, but now I know nobody stocks pulp paper but they can 'order it for you'.

 

[ExcitableBoy]

How to make a 9mm perform like a .45acp?

Send it to a very good method acting school, of course!

 

[eaglescout316]

I'm curious about the methodology for all these studies that show with cutting-edge, top-quality, premium, $$$$ ammo a 9mm outperforms a .45

Every time the studies are summarized it sounds like "if we rip out all the stops, 9mm will beat a run-of-the-mill .45"

Are these studies comparing optimized .45 to optimized 9mm? Or is it more like the 21st century ammunition available for 9mm will in fact outperform stuff found in Browning's junk drawer?

 

[hdwhit]

rwsmith wrote:
I'm saying that a 9mm can approach the (mostly unargued) effectiveness of a .45 with some tweaking.

Define what you mean by "effectiveness".

Define how you intend to test for this "effectiveness" short of shooting a bunch of people and watching how quickly they are incapacitated and how fast they die.

Shooting a bullet into homogeneous material; be it ballistic gel, water, dry paper or wet paper tells you nothing about the "effect" that bullet is going to have on a human body since it is not a homogeneous material.

We have four pages full of people arguing that the 45 is more effective because it is bigger against people arguing the 9mm is no less effective because it is faster. And both backed up by anecdotes, conjecture and extrapolation from dissimilar materials all of which has so far in this thread - as in thousands of others - proven nothing and managed to convince nobody.

How about we return to the original question, "How do you make a 9mm bullet act more like a .45" since that is - at least on some level - objectively answerable?

 

[hdwhit]

eaglescout316 wrote:
I'm curious about the methodology for all these studies that show with cutting-edge, top-quality, premium, $$$$ ammo a 9mm outperforms a .45

Well, rather than simply raising the question, why don't you search the internet for some studies where the methodology is adequately described and then prepare a summary comparing and contrasting them and their respective results to see what aspect of the methodology was driving the author's conclusions. ?

 

[KSDeputy]

I never liked 9mm. I do like 9mm kurtz for pocket guns (.380). I carry a .45 and since we changed from .357 magnum revolvers to the 645, I always have. I am too old to change, unless a phaser comes along.

 

[rwsmith]

I'm back?

Well, I'm back after a lot of issues. The plated 165 grain RN went together easily but they were way to hard to get any expansion. Since my goal is to test expansion and penetration of a heavier than normal bullet, I had to find something softer.

So I found some 158 gr. SWCHP bullets. I've had trouble assembling rounds that would work but hadn't had any success. I got an 'M' expansion die to make the seating a little easier on the nose of the bullet.

I've divided the loading into four steps.

Expand with the 'M' die and flare generously to keep from shaving the bullets.

Lube the bullet with some Imperial wax

Carefully seat the bullet.

Taper crimp enough to reduce the flare.

This may sound nuts, but before I lubed the bullets they wouldn't seat without deforming and the shoulder would swell and wouldn't plunkl I chucked the no fitters in my drill press and filed of the extra diameter. Rather tedious. That's why I tried the lube and they wen't together without deforming to the point that they wouldn't plunk. I have to pat myself on the back for finally figuring out why these things wouldn't chamber.

So, now I'm ready for velocity testing starting with a minimum load of 5 grains of Acc #7. If everything works,I'll shoot into some wet pulp and test penetration and expansion,

Oh, to answer a few comments so far:

Thanks for the constructive comments positive or negative. Sorry it's been so long, but with cardiac therapy and trying to help my son in his endeavors, I've only had time to shoot some. And because of neglect for a few short months, I had to do some drastic cleaning in my garage before I could even think about reloading.

About effectiveness, objectivity and methodology, I'm not writing a paper here. All I can do is shoot wet pulp, measure weight retention, expansion and penetration and draw some conclusion for my own satisfaction. That's where a vast majority of the data we have now comes from. I doubt that there is much data on its effectiveness on living organisms using heavier bullets .

Why not buy a .45? The only answer I have is that 9mm has more rounds. The same goes for a .38.

Caliber wars??? I'm just curious. If I'm wasting my time, it's my time to waste. I've always been an experimenter going on 40 years of reloading. I suppose I've never been a 'serious' reloader on account of that.

As far as searching the internet, I have. I've found out that data for these bullets is very scarce. I've also found that much older reloading manuals have loads for 158 gr. and 165 gr. 9mm bullets, but I don't have them. I like reading old data, maybe I'll find a Lyman manual that has something usable because w/o published data I have to stop short and have no idea where max load is. From the little data I have, about 920 fps is possible. I'm not going to push it, though.

 

[hdwhit]

awlslate wrote:
superiority of the 230
FMJ .45 at the lumbering velocity of 830 fps over a warm 124
gr 9mm at 1200 fps.

I've never been able to push a 124 grain bullet to 1200 fps and neither has the Hornady Handbook.

I have, however, been able to get 185 grain .451 diameter bullets up to 1000 fps (and Hornady provides loads that will supposedly go faster).

 

[RGVshooter]

In order for a 9mm to duplicate a 230gr 45acp moving at 830fps you're gonna have to push a 147gr bullet at 1295fps.

i think just buying a .45 1911 might be uh, safer?