Firearms Modifications?

[Narragansett]

As I read a lot of the threads about certain conversions and modifications of firearms being done at home as hobbying, I seem to recall from my FFL days and ATF literature, that without a class 1 license, it is a rather serious offense to modify a firearm.

Am I wrong here? Just wondering

 

[Sevens]

I’ve never heard any such thing. If by “Class 1” you mean FFL 01, that is simply a dealer with a bound book, that’s not even the FFL class that a Gunsmith carries.

Altering a serial number is highly regulated but altering a firearm...? I almost want to guess that as many folks do it as do not do it.

 

[OLDSTER]

I would have been in the "can" long ago

 

[Bill 76]

This is an interesting question. I really have no idea but a few things occur to me:
hat is a "class 1 license" and what does one do to get one (training, tests, etc.)
What/which modifications? (modification could be anything from a butt cushion on a shotgun to a trigger shoe on a revolver.)
And, there is a tremendous array of bits and pieces for sale out there to enhance your firearm. Seems as though someone would have said something before now . . .
Now having said all the above, I have pause about selling my highly modified MkIII . . .

 

[Justin T]

As I read a lot of the threads about certain conversions and modifications of firearms being done at home as hobbying, I seem to recall from my FFL days and ATF literature, that without a class 1 license, it is a rather serious offense to modify a firearm.

Am I wrong here? Just wondering

I’m no lawyer, and don’t pretend to be one, but here’s my layman’s opinion. There is a key phrase missing in this discussion that is important to remember. There are laws or regulations that do apply when we are “engaged in the business of...”, meaning as a primary or significant source of income, or at least with a high volume of turnover, or something. At that point, I think, the person engaged in the business is supposed to have an FFL07 license.

For Joe Schmoe like me who wants to build an AK for my use, or mount a scope, or change square butt to round, or change a barrel? Nah. Not illegal. At least where I live.

Of course, the above applies to things where the end result is still in compliance with the law.

 

[squidsix]

A long while ago on THR we beat this to death, and came up with "myth" as the consensus.
How on earth would people be able to (legally) be able to build all those AR-15s in VERY common use all over America if that were true?
What constitutes modification? Replacing factory parts? Replacing discontinued factory parts with slightly different factory parts? Swapping grips?
Nobody could pin down any written law about it and certainly nobody could define "modification" and what that would mean to a jury, if a criminal charge were brought against a gun owner for such an action.
Myth.

 

[rosewood]

One thing you have to consider, just because no one has been prosecuted for breaking a law, doesn't mean they are not breaking it. There are a lot of laws with nuances that no one understands, than only a full blown court case might iron out. There are a lot of laws that are not enforced either. Some things, even law enforcement don't know is a law.

That being said, I researched this a while back and I think I concluded, if you are doing the work for yourself, it is fine, when you start doing for it for money, then that is where it gets sticky and a FFL is most likely required.

Rosewood

 

[Doc1500]

Lawyer :
You shot and killed my client supposedly in self-defense.
Why is your self defense pistol so highly modified as to be able to shoot faster than the pistol was originally manufactured? And what licensed gunsmith installed the
Shortened trigger travel kit , competition trigger, lighter weight hammer spring, lighter-weight recoil spring, competition Barrel, hopped up hi power home made LE ammunition ?
And why do you have a Punisher logo engraved into the slide of your pistol?
Gun owner :
Ummmm , well you see , because I can, and because I wanted to.

 

[CAJUNLAWYER]

Lawyer :
You shot and killed my client supposedly in self-defense.
Why is your self defense pistol so highly modified as to be able to shoot faster than the pistol was originally manufactured? And what licensed gunsmith installed the
Shortened trigger travel kit , competition trigger, lighter weight hammer spring, lighter-weight recoil spring, competition Barrel, hopped up hi power home made LE ammunition ?
And why do you have a Punisher logo engraved into the slide of your pistol?
Gun owner :
Ummmm , well you see , because I can, and because I wanted to.

More likely scenario:
Detective: You say you shot the victim in self defense.
Gun owner" Well he robbed me earlier that morning and said when he saw me again he was gonna kill me so I went home and got my gun and when I saw him I shot him. (Gun was an L frame Smith bone stock and the shot was from half a block and the guy got lucky and plugged him right between the eyes )
Detective: SO you admit you shot him
Gun owner: yes
Detective: with a gun (tying up the last loose end )
Gun owner: Yes
Detective: And at the time you were on paper (for you neophytes that means on probation)
Gun owner: yes
Detective: On paper for a felony conviction
Gun Owner: I wasn't convicted of nothing. I pled guilty.
Detective: Why did you plea guilty if you were not guilty
Gun Owner: because my lawyer told me to

 

[rosewood]

Lawyer :
You shot and killed my client supposedly in self-defense.
Why is your self defense pistol so highly modified as to be able to shoot faster than the pistol was originally manufactured? And what licensed gunsmith installed the
Shortened trigger travel kit , competition trigger, lighter weight hammer spring, lighter-weight recoil spring, competition Barrel, hopped up hi power home made LE ammunition ?
And why do you have a Punisher logo engraved into the slide of your pistol?
Gun owner :
Ummmm , well you see , because I can, and because I wanted to.

My response:

Well, you see when I am fearing for my life, all of those upgrades makes me a better shot and decreases the chances of me hitting an innocent bystander. It is all about safety for the public.

 

[LPD256]

I think the key is in post 5.....if what you end up with is legal.

Exchange your 16 inch AR barrel for a 10 inch barrel. You need a tax stamp and more as an SBR. Modify your Glock to be fully automatic. Definite no-no. Keep the gun legal is the rule in my opinion.

 

[WR Moore]

There is a key phrase missing in this discussion that is important to remember. There are laws or regulations that do apply when we are “engaged in the business of...”, ..................

Of course, the above applies to things where the end result is still in compliance with the law.

We have a winner. Although technically, if you do some work for a friend, not necessarily for money, you probably should have a license. UNLESS the friend is standing right there while you work (the item is still in his possession). If you're licensed, it darn well better be in the book unless the customer is right there. Your own stuff, no problem.

 

[Narragansett]

Well, maybe the laws have changed. And yes a class 1 is a needed license to do gun smithing, and be a dealer in other than destructive devices. That is class 3.

I do not think you can take a model 28 say, shorten the bbl, and bore it out to another caliber without restamping the gun with a new caliber, and the company that did it and be legal.

As I said maybe the laws have changed, but i would not defend this to the last drop of my blood.

i would also not want the liability of selling a gun stamped with the factory caliber that is chambered for something else.

Remember, this is just a question, i know I have a highly modified M15, and it is restamped by the class 1 modifier , and was done so in 1978

 

[Justin T]

Er, respectfully, having a company make mods to a gun and DIY’ing them at home for yourself are two vastly different things. Perhaps I misunderstood. Your post 1 spoke about modifications being done at home, as a hobby. Your post 13 talks about having a company modify a gun for you.

Which is it?

 

[Narragansett]

Er, respectfully, having a company make mods to a gun and DIY’ing them at home for yourself are two vastly different things. Perhaps I misunderstood. Your post 1 spoke about modifications being done at home, as a hobby. Your post 13 talks about having a company modify a gun for you.

Which is it?

i am saying mods made at home like cutting bbls and rechambering need a class1 dealers license that covers sales and gunsmithing. So basically I believe the at home do it yourselfer is in violation of federal law. I am not talking about grips, springs etc.

And no they are not vastly different. They both modify a firearm.

 

[Justin T]

i am saying mods made at home like cutting bbls and rechambering need a class1 dealers license that covers sales and gunsmithing. So basically I believe the at home do it yourselfer is in violation of federal law. I am not talking about grips, springs etc.

And no they are not vastly different. They both modify a firearm.

Okay, now we have a disagreement. I can build an AK in my garage without consequence. Or a license. As long as I am in compliance with the law the ATF specifically says I can do this for my own use.

The same goes for doing modifications on personal firearms. I can cut a barrel on a shotgun without consequence or a license as long as I maintain a minimum 18” overall length. Or shorten a stock. Or add a choke tube, if I am able. Or anything else lawful that I want to do to my firearm. No permitting licensing, stamping, ID’ing, or anything else is required. I can even build a complete gun for myself from scratch (rods and blanks, shaped into a gun) if I am so equipped and have the knowledge.

Modification of a firearm for own use vs having a company do it are indeed vastly different things in the eyes of the government. That company you hired in 1978 did your modifications as part of a going business concern. They were engaged in a commercial transaction with you as part of a formalized business. That in itself is incredibly different from someone on this forum modifying their own firearm for their own use and posting their results here. Unless the modifications you make are illegal somehow, or someone thinks you may be making a profit from (lots of) others, or it’s seen as a primary source of income for the home hobbyist, the federal government DOES NOT CARE what you do to your own firearms. Joe Schmoe isn’t doing it to make money or as part of a formalized business. That’s what FFL licenses are generally geared to. State laws may vary, but the federal position on this is very clear.

 

[Rule3]

As I read a lot of the threads about certain conversions and modifications of firearms being done at home as hobbying, I seem to recall from my FFL days and ATF literature, that without a class 1 license, it is a rather serious offense to modify a firearm.

Am I wrong here? Just wondering

I think you need to clarify or be more specific. Modification can be a lot of things or very little.????????


Are these Modifications for your OWN personal guns or are you doing it for others as a business?
As mention in the case of a shotgun you can cut the barrel down to just over 18" and it is legal. You can take you Glock or AR15 and drop in new triggers and assorted other parts.

You can thread the barrel to put on a flash hider. (as long as Your State allows it,

 

[FoundFather]

i am saying mods made at home like cutting bbls and rechambering need a class1 dealers license that covers sales and gunsmithing. So basically I believe the at home do it yourselfer is in violation of federal law.....

In your first post, you asked "Am I wrong here? Just wondering"

OK, I'll give you an answer. You are wrong here.

In our legal system, it is legal unless there is a source with authority which says it is illegal. For criminal law, which is what a violation of a licensing requirement would be, that source is a statute passed by a legislature. You are saying performing the modifications you listed without a license is a violation of federal law. I say, show us the federal law. If you can't, I'm calling bull**** on you, and going back to my regularly scheduled activities of modifying firearms as fast as I can.

 

[lefty_jake]

i am saying mods made at home like cutting bbls and rechambering need a class1 dealers license that covers sales and gunsmithing. So basically I believe the at home do it yourselfer is in violation of federal law. I am not talking about grips, springs etc.

And no they are not vastly different. They both modify a firearm.

If these types of mods were illegal, then it would also be illegal to install a .22 conversion kit on a centerfire pistol. I am referring to the widely available kits which replace the entire slide on a Glock, or 1911, or a wide range of other common pistols. In some cases, the .22 slide has a different barrel length than the original pistol.

Even though these kits are drop in parts, and do not require modification of the original parts, the overall result is the same as what you have described. The home hobbyist has changed the caliber and barrel length of a pistol at the kitchen table. This is both quite common, and legal by Federal law.

 

[JJEH]

As I read a lot of the threads about certain conversions and modifications of firearms being done at home as hobbying, I seem to recall from my FFL days and ATF literature, that without a class 1 license, it is a rather serious offense to modify a firearm.

Am I wrong here? Just wondering

You can modify your personal guns but as soon as you do other people's guns you'll need a FFL.