Firing 357 Magnum from short barrel

[kaaskop49]

attn: Sailormilan2

The original .38 R-P pre +P loads from 1969-70 with 125 and 158 gr JHP were also barn burners, like your 88gr .357s. Loaded with a heavy charge of slow-burning powder, they performed better in longer bbls. I finished off my 30-year old 'remainders' in a 16" Rossi '92 carbine bbl. Even in that long tube with no cylinder gap, flash and blast were something else.

 

[chief38]

Actual chronographed results have showed me that shooting Buffalo Bore 38 Specials #20A 158 grain +P (Heavy) LSWCHP-GC will produce around 1040 fps from a 2" barrel and a 158 grain .357 Mag. will do around 1130 - 1150 from the same gun. There is about a 10% difference in MV for the same weight bullet, but there is TRIPLE the muzzle blast, flash, recoil, wear & tear on the gun. Long & short of it is at least for me.......... go with the 38 Special in a 2" barreled revolver and relegate the Magnums for 4" and longer barreled guns. The difference is not worth all the negatives and it's now pretty much acknowledged that the 125 grain 357 Mag's are something to stay away from especially in NON L or N frame Smiths.

 

[Mister_Smith]

Looks like the original question was more than answered but I guess I'll enjoy the pleasure of chiming in and adding my two cents. I own a Smith & Wesson 340PD and a 340 M&P, both with 1-7/8" barrels, 11.4 oz and 13.3 oz weight respectively. I have scoured the internet for real world chrono results and everything I found shows a vast improvement in velocity with the .357 over the .38 +P round.

I have found that a 158 gr .357 out of a 340 averages around 1070 fps while a .38 Special averages around 700 fps, with 800 fps for +P in the same weight.

Make no mistake, the felt recoil is stout, the web of my hand was a bit swollen after 37 rounds of .357 through my 11 ounce 340PD, my hand was red and it was also sore for a couple days, but if I ever have to use that diminutive gun for self defense, I want all the power I can handle. I have read too many stories of determined killers soaking up .38, 9mm, or .45 ACP, somewhere there is a story of a cop who had to shoot a guy 13 times with a .45 to stop him.

Do you all remember the story this spring/summer of the Georgia housewife who had her home broken into, the attacker chased her and her two children, when the wife was cornered, she shot the attacker six times, hitting him FIVE TIMES IN THE FACE. The attacker then had the wherewithall to leave the house under his own power, get in his car, start it, and drive away, he drove some blocks before crashing, was arrested, and died days or weeks later. Shot FIVE TIMES in the face by .38 Special, that doesn't give me a while lot of confidence in the .38 Special.

Stories like that make me shy away from the .38, especially in a FIVE SHOT gun. So anyway, as you now know, the .357 has a substantial velocity advantage even out of the stubby little snub barrel.

As for blast, I never notice it during daylight hours, and I've never shot at night. Noise wise, I've never shot without ear plugs at the range because it is enclosed, but I want to try ONCE when out in the field to hear what it's like from this tiny gun.

Well, that's my two cents...

 

[kaaskop49]

attn: Mister Smith

Hi Mister Smith! So I'm not the only one who believes a J-frame .357 carry gun is for shooting .357 ammo... Careful, you're stepping on a lot of toes here, just not mine.

 

[FlippinHippie]

Information You Can Understand

I've been listening to this argument since the seventies. All the talk of velocities and chronographs are pure nonsense. I did a little testing of my own that should dispel any myths...

The Gun: Ruger LCR 357 magnum.
The Test Medium: A steel oil drum.

Fired from point blank range the .357 penetrated BOTH sides of the barrel like a laser beam. The .38 special +p penetrated ONE side of the barrel and left an insignificant dent in the other side. Several different brand and bullet weights were used. Results were the same across the board.

Conclusion? The .357 is the clear winner in power. Since most defense situations you are likely to encounter are less than ten feet away and less than three shots fired, I think I'll carry the .357 any day. In this particular gun at least, the recoil is a non-issue. Since malfunctions are almost non-existent, I call my revolver "Five for Sure".

 

[kaaskop49]

attn: FlippinHippie

Welcome to the Forum. Can never have too many new members! Appreciate your 'like' with your real-world take on .357 power. Just be ready for others to try to refute you, saying that power is wasted on penetration. Not me.

Can you give me the skinny on the LCR in .357? Any ammo restrictions like on the Scandium guns? What mag loads have you tried in it? Are double-taps possible since I know it weighs only 17 oz.? Many thanks!

Kaaskop49

 

[calmex]

As we are limited to the .38 Special Cartridge, our "maximum loading" is the .38 Special Heavy Duty rounds fired out of Heavy Duty's, Outdoorman, and home-made H.D. and Outdoorsman revolvers. (By home-made, I mean "other" N-frame revolvers remarked and sometimes rebarrelled. The copies are often VERY good.)

However, other stuff is out there as well. After all, if a 28 can become a nice 23, a 19 can certainly become a nice 14 or 15. A 66 could become a 67.

Testing last Saturday with "heavy duty" loads to make IPSC major with a bit of leeway, we were getting our 160 grain bullet up to a nice 1,250 out of the Outdoorsman with one-thumb extraction, and about 1,180 out of the 4 inch Heavy Duty (with one-thumb extraction.)

"Let's test it out of my snubby!" A friend decreed. This snubby would be a 2.5 inch nickled 19 that has become a 15. The load we were testing was using Green Dot powder, which burns rather faster than some of the others. Velocity out of the 2.5 inch barrel was a respectable 1,130 fps -- a 179 power factor. We are not trying for "maximum effort" here, there's no need. That load is already well known being either Elmer's or Skeeter's loadings using 2400 powder.

Safe loads -- although heavy -- from our 2-inch J-frames using the same bullet/different powder charge are up around 950 to 980 fps with rather painful recoil using the small wooden grips. I'd say it's a significant enough difference to be worth it.

All our Heavy Duty loadings have the primers painted red with a permanent marker, and are loaded into red cartridge boxes for rapid visual identification by ourselves while remaining unsuspicious to the "authorities" should we run into one of the notorious Highway Check-stops.

A "Mexican Python". Marked Diamondback. The work is usually very good. Jeff Cooper also said that "silly regulations provoke transparent evasions" and he certainly hit the nail on the head with that comment.

 

[FlippinHippie]

I consider myself somewhat of an expert on the subject of the LCR line. (I have both the .38 and the .357) The magnum model will fire any .38 or .357 round that will fit the chambers. The recoil is far more controllable and easy on the hand than the old Smith 19.

The gun weighs in at exacly 20 oz. loaded with 125 grain. The way I practice with this gun is to find a tree about the width of a man's chest. Back off ten or fifteen feet or so, and blaze away. I can put all five rounds in an area the size of a pie plate every time at ten feet. I have fired an entire box of 125 "full house" magnums one-handed at that tree. I've shot both the 125 federal SJHP and the 110 grain version, and the 158 Semi-Wad Cutters. No issues with pain, blast, or follow up shots. Kudos to Ruger for the best designed close quarters revolver I've ever had the pleasure to shoot. Get one.


Can you give me the skinny on the LCR in .357? Any ammo restrictions like on the Scandium guns? What mag loads have you tried in it? Are double-taps possible since I know it weighs only 17 oz.? Many thanks!

Kaaskop49[/QUOTE]

 

[308]

Good posts Gentlemen. It is fun to discuss such issues as these when we like fine firearms, that are so well represented on this forum, but as some of you have stated above the original question has been asked and answered several times.
To me the bottom line is use what you want as long as YOU can get the hits/accuracy you need, after all a hit with a wadcutter and 2.5 grains of bullseye in a 38 special is better than a miss with a Maximum!!!
If you can hit what you want to at relative speed you will most likely be fine with whatever you choose, just my 2 cents and worth exactly what you paid for em!!!

 

[FlippinHippie]

I love the Diamondback Calmex! Wish I could afford one now.

 

[calmex]

I love the Diamondback Calmex! Wish I could afford one now.

Well, it's NOT really a Diamondback. It's a Python -- which would be illegal here due to it's caliber -- marked up and registered as a Diamondback. What we'd call a Mexican Python.

No, it's not mine. I wish it was. Here's a better shot of it. But believe me, it's a Python. I saw it "before" and then again "after". There's quite a bit of stuff like this around down here.

 

[jack danials]

Oh the fun of reloading. Faster powders work well in shorter barrels, decreasing blast and recoil over slower powders in factory loads.

 

[Neumann]

I have heard self defense described in naval terms - shoot until the enemy sinks, strikes her colors or catches fire.

If a .357 magnum in a short barrel shoots a 3 foot flame, there's a chance at all three.

 

[old&slow]

I don't shoot many factory loads and my chrono records only show one comparison.

38 spl. 125 gr. Gold dot, 817 fps. out of my 2 1/8" model 60.
.357 125 gr. JHP Federal, 1165 fps. out of the same model 60.

 

[kaaskop49]

I don't shoot many factory loads and my chrono records only show one comparison.

38 spl. 125 gr. Gold dot, 817 fps. out of my 2 1/8" model 60.
.357 125 gr. JHP Federal, 1165 fps. out of the same model 60.

Thanks for the data! A Happy Thanksgiving to you and to all Forum members.

Kaaskop49
Shield #5103

 

[flintsghost]

The Speer data for the "Short Barrel" ammo is taken in a 2" barrel. They use the same 135 grain Gold Dot bullet in both 38 +P and .357 magnum.

.38 +P is 860 FPS .357 Magnum is 990 FPS

Both of these rounds are usually readily obtainable. The nice thing about 38 is that it can be had in 50 rd boxes from LE distributors. The 357 is only available in 20 Rd boxes. I use both with the 38 mainly in J frames and the .357 in my 66's.

 

[Nevada Ed]

calmex;

That 160gr with Green Dot at 950 fps has to be one heck of a load.

I stopped with GD at 822 fps.... since I never found any +P data.

 

[2hawk]

Late to the party, but...

Here's a clip from the Speer website I saved some time ago. Although the Speer GDSB is loaded kind of light compared to others, the rounds do have a good rep in SD use. Just as a side note, while I consider the .38 spl. completely viable for defensive use, there's no question the .357 mag. will put more energy on target. Individual choice as to the trade off in shootability, but that's one thing the GDSB has going for it- it's somewhat reduced loading (compared to top loads) makes it very easy for followup shots. IMHO, of course...

 

[calmex]

calmex;

That 160gr with Green Dot at 950 fps has to be one heck of a load.

I stopped with GD at 822 fps.... since I never found any +P data.

Ed:

We were using 7.2 grains of Green Dot in .38 Special cases with Lee 160 grain Tumble-lubed SWC's and it was working fine. Then a few of the guys ran into super-sticky extraction problems, and we backed off to 7.0. The 7.2 grain load always worked well in my guns, including my old Heavy Duty. One thumb extraction, which is what we want in our loadings. However, we had some real sticky "pound them suckers out with a rubber mallet" problems in some of the other guys' guns. Was it THEIR reloading techniques? Was it their scales were off? I don't know, but why take chances. I am not afraid of the 7.2 grain load in my guns if I'm reloading it but I kind of shy away from Green Dot loads made by some of the other guys around here. Voodoo, reloading. You know?

We found it an exciting load for the "Super-Snubbies" (remarked .357's registered as .38's) but it does NOT provide the maximum punch from longer barrels. The original Elmer Keith load of a Lyman 358429 (or reasonable facsimile) and 13.5 grains of 2400 in a .38 Special case with a W-W standard primer remains the best load we have for that purpose.

 

[jimmyj]

A major plus for firing full house magnums in a short barrel is if the bullet misses the BG the muzzle blast will deafening him and the muzzle flash will set him on fire. So its a win win !