First time firing my 360 PD bad experience

[ZephyrR1]

Hi everyone, I thought I'd go to the range yesterday and try out my 360 PD, and give it a good test. So I packed up my stuff and headed out. Going to try out 38 special, and 357 mag. Started out with 38 special, fired 15 rounds beautiful, great so I loaded the cylinder with 357 140 grain Buffalo Bore heavy load, so here goes boom and said to myself I'm not doing that again. Okay went to open the cylinder and can't guns completely locked up.so l got the range manager and asked for help not knowing what's going on, thought maybe a round jumped its crimping and jammed. So he says he'll get someone else guy, comes over and says he'll get someone else's now going on my third person and I'm waiting with a hot pistol still jammed. Third person says he has to take to the back, me waiting what happened. Nice guy comes back and got it open, shows me the case looks good then shows me the adjacent round bullet jumped the case by pretty much. Also shows me the brass split about 3/8 to 1/2" . And also shows me that the cylinder has cracked and there's a star arm missing on the extractor. 1 more thing theirs a scratch on the cylinder side probably getting it open. I did call S&W to start a warranty claim I have to send it to them. Never heard anything like this, any thoughts. Some Pic's, Ray

 

[JRD]

Buffalo Bore makes very hot ammo and does not adhere to SAAMI pressure limits. They have a unique approach compared to industry standard companies. They put warnings on their ammo saying not to use it on certain guns. Just because they label that box of ammunition as 357 Magnum, doesn't mean you can shoot it in any 357 Magnum firearm. Buffalo Bore says to use it only in steel frame guns and warns against using this load in any lightweight alloy framed revolvers.

Interestingly the box end flap is labelled as "For use in all 357 Mag firearms in normal operating condition." Except it isn't according to their website!

Here is Buffalo Bore's warning on their website regarding your particular load.

BUFFALO-BARNES LEAD-FREE 357 Mag Low Flash-Short Barrel Pistol & Handgun Ammunition

BUFFALO-BARNES LEAD-FREE 357 Mag Low Flash-Short Barrel Field Proven pistol and handgun ammo. Maximum firepower bullets. Best ammunition for pistols and handguns for sale. Buffalo Bore. Strictly big bore. Strictly Business.

www.buffalobore.com

"Buffalo Bore type HEAVY 357 Mag. load and as such, should only be used in revolvers made of all steel. It should not be fired in a lightweight, alloy framed or cylindered revolver. Feel free to use it in ANY/ALL 357 mag. chambered rifles and all steel revolvers/handguns."

Make sure you disclose what ammo you shot to S&W when you return the gun. S&W will probably blame the ammunition (rightly so) and Buffalo Bore will probably say you should have read their fine print.

When I'm not shooting my own reloads, I chose factory ammo from the well established companies that adhere to SAAMI. Buffalo Bore touts some impressive ballistics but it comes at the cost of higher than standard pressures and increased wear on your gun. Plus their small print says not to use it in certain guns. Bear that in mind when you buy ammo.

 

[413Maxwedge]

Good Lord, you broke it on the 16th round!?! Contacting S&W is the correct 1st step... they'll fix or replace it. I'd also contact BuffaloBore customer service about that round jumping it's case. I've never had a problem with any ammo in my AirLite M&P 340, including .357 (besides the ouch factor).

Edit - JRD posted before I could. I didn't realize BB had a warning like that. I like their .38+P rounds which approach other's .357 power.

 

[ZephyrR1]

Buffalo Bore makes very hot ammo and does not adhere to SAAMI pressure limits. They have a unique approach compared to industry standard companies. They put warnings on their ammo saying not to use it on certain guns. Just because they label that box of ammunition as 357 Magnum, doesn't mean you can shoot it in any 357 Magnum firearm. Buffalo Bore says to use it only in steel frame guns and warns against using this load in any lightweight alloy framed revolvers.

Interestingly the box end flap is labelled as "For use in all 357 Mag firearms in normal operating condition." Except it isn't according to their website!

Here is Buffalo Bore's warning on their website regarding your particular load.

BUFFALO-BARNES LEAD-FREE 357 Mag Low Flash-Short Barrel Pistol & Handgun Ammunition

BUFFALO-BARNES LEAD-FREE 357 Mag Low Flash-Short Barrel Field Proven pistol and handgun ammo. Maximum firepower bullets. Best ammunition for pistols and handguns for sale. Buffalo Bore. Strictly big bore. Strictly Business.

www.buffalobore.com

"Buffalo Bore type HEAVY 357 Mag. load and as such, should only be used in revolvers made of all steel. It should not be fired in a lightweight, alloy framed or cylindered revolver. Feel free to use it in ANY/ALL 357 mag. chambered rifles and all steel revolvers/handguns."

Make sure you disclose what ammo you shot to S&W when you return the gun. S&W will probably blame the ammunition (rightly so) and Buffalo Bore will probably say you should have read their fine print.

When I'm not shooting my own reloads, I chose factory ammo from the well established companies that adhere to SAAMI. Buffalo Bore touts some impressive ballistics but it comes at the cost of higher than standard pressures and increased wear on your gun. Plus their small print says not to use it in certain guns. Bear that in mind when you buy ammo.

When I purchased it I asked for 357 for my pistola, I know buffalo bore quality just thought its okay as 140 grain not less than 120 chalk up to experience. Thanks I'll heed your suggestions much needed.

 

[tlawler]

Ouch! BB 140 grain in a Scandium framed revolver is purely masochistic! When I had one, I put a few fairly mild factory .357 loads through it, and that was pure hell. I ended up loading some practice .357 rounds that were a little hotter than .38 +P, but still short of the standard factory loads. I still hated shooting it and finally got rid of it.

 

[cmj8591]

Did the extractor star break when they were trying to eject the bad round? Hindsight is always 20/20 but I tend to keep my Buffalo Bore ammo restricted to the big, steel N frames. I have kept the 357 ammo that I use in my 360 limited to 158 grain, SWC rounds. I have had no issues with normal factory loads and use an older Winchester 158g lead SWC as my carry load. My guess is that your gun will come back to you good as new.

 

[JRD]

I've read where some serious handloaders with their own pressure testing equipment tested Buffalo Bore "heavy outdoorsman" 38 Special ammo as an experiment. They found the 38 Special +P ammo from Buffalo Bore was much closer to 357 Mag pressure than SAAMI 38+P pressure. If Buffalo Bore loads 38+P like that, it makes you wonder what they load 357 Mag to.

Another important thought: speak to your gun store who sold you Buffalo Bore when you asked for 357 Mag ammo. They probably like to sell that ammo because it's expensive and they are making more profit on it, but they should really know it is specialty ammo that is not actually standard 357 Magnum ammo. They should instead sell you a box of 50 Remington, Winchester, Federal, Hornady, etc rounds rather than 20 nuclear bomb level Buffalo Bore rounds.

I understand that S&W tested the scandium alloy and titanium cylinder revolver extensively when they developed them and the revolvers will stand up to more shooting with SAAMI ammo (and proof rounds) than your hand will.

Buffalo Bore is another story though. I'd only ever shoot Buffalo Bore 38 Special through a gun that is actually a 357 Magnum. And Buffalo Bore 357 Magnum? Hmm...

 

[kadams]

Sorry for your bad luck at the range, I've had some experience with alloy .38, 357, and .44 alloy frames.
For Me the recoil impulse is too violent with hot +p or magnum loadings in any of them. Im not recoil sensitive its just nasty in those light frame guns and unnecessary for their intended use. They are a breeze to carry with their light weight but I stick to standard loadings they will be more than enough for two or four legged problems. I don't think the added recoil is worth the battering your gun and your wrist will take. I hope SW gets you your gun back ASAP. Welcome to the forum.

 

[ZephyrR1]

Did the extractor star break when they were trying to eject the bad round? Hindsight is always 20/20 but I tend to keep my Buffalo Bore ammo restricted to the big, steel N frames. I have kept the 357 ammo that I use in my 360 limited to 158 grain, SWC rounds. I have had no issues with normal factory loads and use an older Winchester 158g lead SWC as my carry load. My guess is that your gun will come back to you good as new.

Not sure I was not there when he got it open I'm sure he used a mallet, I do know the spent case was stuck and he went back again. He came back again with the rounds out.

 

[Jerry in SC]

Man that's awful. Looking at the velocities give me a good idea that they're much hotter than a major manufacturer's +P.

 

[ZephyrR1]

I've read where some serious handloaders with their own pressure testing equipment tested Buffalo Bore "heavy outdoorsman" 38 Special ammo as an experiment. They found the 38 Special +P ammo from Buffalo Bore was much closer to 357 Mag pressure than SAAMI 38+P pressure. If Buffalo Bore loads 38+P like that, it makes you wonder what they load 357 Mag to.

Another important thought: speak to your gun store who sold you Buffalo Bore when you asked for 357 Mag ammo. They probably like to sell that ammo because it's expensive and they are making more profit on it, but they should really know it is specialty ammo that is not actually standard 357 Magnum ammo. They should instead sell you a box of 50 Remington, Winchester, Federal, Hornady, etc rounds rather than 20 nuclear bomb level Buffalo Bore rounds.

I understand that S&W tested the scandium alloy and titanium cylinder revolver extensively when they developed them and the revolvers will stand up to more shooting with SAAMI ammo (and proof rounds) than your hand will.

Buffalo Bore is another story though. I'd only ever shoot Buffalo Bore 38 Special through a gun that is actually a 357 Magnum. And Buffalo Bore 357 Magnum? Hmm...

I didn't think there would be a problem, the gun says not less than 120 gr. 140 gr. In my experience which is very limited 357 mag should have been ok. I purchased it for self defense. most likely I would only carry with 38+ P. Not 357+ P if there is such a round , I really had no intention of carrying this ammo. Now I feel naked without it. This incident scared me, that possibly it could have blown apart luckily me

 

[Macc283]

I only used low recoil 357 loads when I had a m&p 360 like gd and Remington makes. I was always worried about the scandium frame.

 

[ZephyrR1]

I only used low recoil 357 loads when I had a m&p 360 like gd and Remington makes. I was always worried about the scandium frame.

Yes if I'd had any idea that this could happen, I would've fired from a vice and cord crouched down behind a rock. I'm learning a lot already joining this forum.

 

[cmj8591]

Not sure I was not there when he got it open I'm sure he used a mallet, I do know the spent case was stuck and he went back again. He came back again with the rounds out.

I'm going to bet that he wacked the extractor rod to get that stuck case out. I'm also going to bet that extractor rod is now bent. That's about the only way that an extractor star would experience the force necessary to break one of those arms. As counter intuitive as it may seem, the way to get a stuck case out like that is to gently tap it out with a range rod from the front of the cylinder. It all can be fixed.

 

[cmj8591]

This gun has about a million miles of CC on it and more rounds through it than I can count. It is without doubt, the most uncomfortable handgun I have ever used with full loads. On the other hand, I never felt under gunned when I was carrying it.

 

[Sevens]

Some great responses in this thread. These days I am one of S&W's harshes critics — but I cannot blame them for this one.

I would like to hope that S&W covers this but when you tell them what ammo you were using, they may protest.

Please be sure to return to this same thread with updates along the way.

 

[JRD]

I didn't think there would be a problem, the gun says not less than 120 gr. 140 gr. In my experience which is very limited 357 mag should have been ok. I purchased it for self defense. most likely I would only carry with 38+ P. Not 357+ P if there is such a round , I really had no intention of carrying this ammo. Now I feel naked without it. This incident scared me, that possibly it could have blown apart luckily me

You did the right thing by following the firearm manufactures instructions about the bullet weight. Unfortunately the ammo manufacturers special instructions weren't as easy for you to find.

The "No less than 120 gr bullet" warning is specific to the titanium cylinder guns. Even with SAAMI pressure ammo, the powder gasses from 110 grain JHP ammo will erode the finish on the face of the titanium cylinder. Thus S&W warns against it. It isn't a problem with 125 gr or heavier bullets. There is something specific to the pressure time curve of the super lightweight bullet loads that is very erosive to the cylinder. This isn't a concern with steel cylinders, just titanium. It also is an entirely different problem than Buffalo Bore however. Theirs is just plain loaded way hotter than normal factory ammo regardless of bullet weight.

I do want to say that Buffalo Bore ammo fills a very specific niche in providing extra powerful ammo for certain applications where a very knowledgeable consumer can know what guns to shoot it in and which not to. In my opinion, their ammo shouldn't be on the shelf alongside normal ammo for an unknowing customer to buy.

Imagine you pulled up to a gas station and noticed alongside the normal 87 octane pump, another pump which sold Elephant Engine "gas" which delivers an incredible increase in horsepower and miles per gallon compared to regular gas. And you buy a tank full... and it breaks your crankshaft and destroys your engine as you pull back onto the highway. Your first instinct is to blame Ford or Chevy or GM or whomever made your car- and then you get on the Elephant Engine company's website and it warns in the fine print that it's not for use in a family sedan and should only be used in heavy duty trucks. That's kind of what happened to you and your gun.

 

[Shibadog]

I'm betting JRD is right. Wrong ammo for an ultra lite pistol. I'm afraid you're going to be out a pistol. Ammo was obviously over pressure and the fact the mfgr says use only in Steel Frame revolvers isn't going to help you. Sorry my friend but I think you eat the cost on this one. And you're right, that little Smith could have grenaded on you.

 

[joebuck]

This is unfortunate. Buffalo bore ammo is great stuff, but the "heavy loads" are not for newbies for sure. I have shot Buffalo heavy .357 thru an 11.5 oz Airlite quite a bit. I love it but some loads do jump crimp. That the case is split is weird. Buffalo uses mostly Starline brass which is some of the best. There is a smart way to fix a jam from bullet jump but it looks like this was not done. The .357 mag J frame Airlites are the best pocket guns ever. Get the gun fixed and try again with .38+p's. I think if you email Tim Sundles directly (the owner of Buffalo Bore) he will tell you his ammo is NOT overpressure as some have stated here. He is very knowledgeable about his product and will give you only a straight truthful answer.

 

[SSGRock]

Got this used revolver on Lay-A-Way at my LGS. Hope I have better luck my first range trip with it.