First time problem, bullets creeping out

[Miracle Man]

So I managed to get some trigger time in yesterday. Took my new to me 586 and fairly new to me model 19 both 357 magnums out.

Had a mixture of 125 gr XTP's with 2400. 125 gr. JSP's with Blue dot, both 357 mag. And a box of 38's with 158 gr. Hornady LSWC's loaded with 3.9 grs W231 and standard SPP's.

Well both guns shot the magnum's great. Just shooting off a rickety table with no sandbags. Man the trigger on that 19 is just light and crisp. Not that the 586 is awful, it's nice too, awyways.

After I shot 3 of the 158 gr LSWC in the model 19 I couldn't cock the hammer, cylinder was locked up. I was like what the...? Turned the revolver slightly sideways and discovered problem. Bullets were sticking out past the front of the cylinder.

I crimped them with my new Lee FC die and I guess I took it a little to easy on the crimp? The magnums were roll crimped with a standard lee bullet seating die, fairly heavy.

Moral of the story is I've learned you can't get away with a light crimp even on mild load in 38 special.

 

[robertrwalsh]

Yep, that can happen. There is something of a learning curve there. You are experiencing that.

 

[CH4]

Yep, getting the crimp just right can take some work.

 

[Miracle Man]

Yep, that can happen. There is something of a learning curve there. You are experiencing that.

So I'm recrimping here in a bit. Can't wait for better weather to chronograph and test these new Smith's.

 

[smithra_66]

Also make sure your expander is not too large. That can work against your crimp, no matter how tight you make it.

Your lead bullets should also be .358" to make sure they are gripped tightly by the case, too.

 

[Miracle Man]

Oh and my buddy has a Ruger security six SS, 2 and 1/2 inch barrel, nice gun. But man that thing tore the web of my hand up with the magnums. Nice smaller woods carry gun but not a target shooter, to me anyways. LOL

 

[Nevada Ed]

With a new load or bullet, one needs to tinker with the load and crimp
to fine tune it for the gun it is used in.

Just the difference in weight from a J frame to a K frame, can cause a difference
in how the revolver recoils and puts forces on the bullet, case and crimp.

It is only a matter of time before a bullet will start to move forward in a case
if enough energy is applied.

One reason I mark the head of my .357 cases with a black felt pen, when
I notice a small case split starting at the mouth of the case.
Two small or one large crack, means that this case is on its last loading
to prevent problems.

 

[Miracle Man]

Also make sure your expander is not too large. That can work against your crimp, no matter how tight you make it.

Your lead bullets should also be .358" to make sure they are gripped tightly by the case, too.

They're .358 Hornady factory 158 gr LSWC. And yes I tinkered around with expander die until I got it set for brass to just accept bullet into mouth. Took awhile haha.

I'm getting there

 

[Miracle Man]

With a new load or bullet, one needs to tinker with the load and crimp
to fine tune it for the gun it is used in.

Just the difference in weight from a J frame to a K frame, can cause a difference
in how the revolver recoils and puts forces on the bullet, case and crimp.

It is only a matter of time before a bullet will start to move forward in a case
if enough energy is applied.

One reason I mark the head of my .357 cases with a black felt pen, when
I notice a small case split starting at the mouth of the case.
Two small or one large crack, means that this case is on its last loading
to prevent problems.

Yes sir, thanks.

I'll crimp a few of the new 158 gr lead loads and check them before doing the whole remaining 47 of them. Good idea sir.

And yes there's a good bit of difference in recoil with the 4" model 19 and the 6" model 586 with the magnum loads. Hadn't really considered that either.

 

[STORMINORMAN]

Should not be even close to enough recoil with that load of WIN 231: something is off with either the expansion or the crimp. How much resistance is noticed as the rounds are going through the carbide portion of the die? Where are you crimping? Are you loading to some arbitrary ("published"?) OAL or is there an actual crimp groove? If these are swaged they probably need to be crimped over the shoulder.

Cheers!

 

[glenwolde]

Another possibility: It's the Lee Factory Crimp die. Since the lead bullets are .358, they are larger than jacketed bullets. Sometimes the LFC die will end up post-sizing lead bullets down. The difference in the "spring-back" rate from sizing between lead and the brass case can add to it also.

Sometimes, it can size the bullet down, and then the brass case rebounds more from the sizing than the bullets.

Add in there's no crimp groove in that bullet. Try crimping them without using the LFC. Preferably with a taper crimp die.

 

[mikld]

Is your Hornady 38 bullet the soft, swaged lead bullet with a knurled finish and dry lube? That may be part of the problem. No crimp groove, Lee FCD, soft lead not "holding" a decent crimp. FCD may be swaging the bullet down and resizing the case resulting in spring back, thus not enough crimp to hold the bullet. (also too much crimp can loosen a crimp; bulging the case and lessening neck tension).

 

[Miracle Man]

Another possibility: It's the Lee Factory Crimp die. Since the lead bullets are .358, they are larger than jacketed bullets. Sometimes the LFC die will end up post-sizing lead bullets down. The difference in the "spring-back" rate from sizing between lead and the brass case can add to it also.

Sometimes, it can size the bullet down, and then the brass case rebounds more from the sizing than the bullets.

Add in there's no crimp groove in that bullet. Try crimping them without using the LFC. Preferably with a taper crimp die.

Thanks,

Just remembered, my 357 dies are RCBS just standard 3 die set. I crimped all the 357 loads with them without issue. The regular RCBS bullet seating die crimp (roll isn't it)? will do won't it? For the Hornady 158 LSWC

 

[glenwolde]

Thanks,

Just remembered, my 357 dies are RCBS just standard 3 die set. I crimped all the 357 loads with them without issue. The regular RCBS bullet seating die crimp (roll isn't it)? will do won't it? For the Hornady 158 LSWC

It'll work, but it's impossible to roll crimp a bullet that has no cannelure or crimp groove without it damaging the bullet. As to whether or not it's enough damage to matter is another matter.

With those bullets, my preferred method would be to taper crimp, and seat and crimp in separate steps. Where you are now, I'd try a little roll crimp. It might damage the bullet a little bit but it's better than pulling them. I hate pulling bullets. Really, really, hate pulling bullets.

 

[243winxb]

Do not use Lee factory crimp die on lead bullets.

See post 12.

 

[glowe]

I like and agree with this article. Roll crimp for revolver and taper crimp for semi-autos. Exceptions do exist, but nothing more solid than a nice roll of brass seated in the cannelure of the bullet or over the top of a fully encased wadcutter. The makers of reloading dies usually give you the preferred crimp dies in the set. For revolvers its almost always a roll crimp.

Cartridge Crimping Styles and Uses - Gun Digest

 

[Miracle Man]

Is your Hornady 38 bullet the soft, swaged lead bullet with a knurled finish and dry lube? That may be part of the problem. No crimp groove, Lee FCD, soft lead not "holding" a decent crimp. FCD may be swaging the bullet down and resizing the case resulting in spring back, thus not enough crimp to hold the bullet. (also too much crimp can loosen a crimp; bulging the case and lessening neck tension).

Yes

They were seated to 1.550 as per minimum OAL by Lee relaoding manual. Lyman manual was similar depth. Speer I think as well?

I just seated 6 of them to 1.540 and gave them a crimp with the RCBS seating die. Enough that you can see it. It's probably pinching lead down some.

I'm gonna have to get a taper crimp die I suppose. Oh and bullets come out easily with just a light tap on bullet hammer. The ones crimped with Lee FCD that is.

 

[Miracle Man]

I like and agree with this article. Roll crimp for revolver and taper crimp for semi-autos. Exceptions do exist, but nothing more solid than a nice roll of brass seated in the cannelure of the bullet or over the top of a fully encased wadcutter. The makers of reloading dies usually give you the preferred crimp dies in the set. For revolvers its almost always a roll crimp.

Cartridge Crimping Styles and Uses - Gun Digest

Going to dive into that article.

 

[Miracle Man]

Do not use Lee factory crimp die on lead bullets.

See post 12.

I found that out, the hard way, lol.

The bullets crimped with Lee FCD will come out with a light tap in bullet hammer. I'm sure I wasn't applying some crazy crimp pressure on them with it though.

 

[PALADIN85020]

Use a more agressive roll crimp. Your bullets aren't creeping out. Your relatively lightweight revolver with the case is recoiling away from the bullets. It's called "inertia of rest." Check Newton's laws of motion for a more detailed explanation. Elementary, my dear Watson!

John