*FIXED* Endshake bearings have no effect - Model 19

[fredg19]

I am puzzled, maybe someone can shed some light on this.

I picked up a super clean Model 19-3 4 inch a few weeks ago. It looks like it was hardly shot at all, no flame cutting and no case marks on the blast shield. The cylinder locks up tight as far as rotational play is concerned and the timing is right on. And the finish is about perfect. It came with the box and papers including the original sales receipt from 1973, the gun was made in 1971.

However, it has a fair amount of endshake. As this gun appears to not have been fired much I can only guess it came from the factory that way. With the cylinder pushed forward I have about .005 barrel cylinder gap and pushed back I get about .009-.010.

I figured that a .002 bearing would set things right and reduce the endshake to around .002 and increase the gap to .007.

I ordered the bearings and installed one. No change... then I installed two bearings.... no change... I did this until I had installed 8 bearings and still no change, still .005 and .009-.010.

I know I am installing them correctly as it is a no brainer. I checked for yoke play and there is none it is nice and tight.

The gun shoots great and is very accurate so worse case I will just not worry about it. But I am very confused as to why the bearings had no effect.

Any ideas?

 

[What the]

Your B/C gap is/was perfect @ .004, I don't know where you put the bearings but 3 should have locked your cylinder up tight, as in no rotational movement.

Take them out and shoot your 19 to your hearts content....like they say.....if it ain't broke don't fix it.

Nice revolver by the way....

 

[Alk8944]

In the past someone, not understanding how things work, cut the end of the yoke barrel for who knows what reason, and the gas ring is bearing against the flange on the front of the yoke barrel instead of on the back end.

If you have a vernier, dial or digital caliper, remove the yoke and measure the length of the yoke barrel from the end to the back of the shoulder using the depth end of the caliper. The measurement should be ca 1.475 to 1.485. If it is shorter you will need to add end shake bearings enough to get the length within this range for a base point. If yours measures 1.460 you will need about .020 to even start. I just measured 2 of mine and they were both 1.480, and do not have any shims in either as I recall.

 

[Alk8944]

Your B/C gap is/was perfect @ .004, I don't know where you put the bearings but 3 should have locked your cylinder up tight, as in no rotational movement.

Take them out and shoot your 19 to your hearts content....like they say.....if it ain't broke don't fix it.

Nice revolver by the way....

It is not either/or. The barrel/cylinder gap and end shake both have to be right. The end shake is the more important of the two. There is no way to install the end shake bearings wrong!

He didn't say he had a .004 B-C gap anyway, he said the end shake was .004-.005. End shake should not exceed .002, with .001 being preferable, just enough so the cylinder doesn't bind.

You are correct that 3 .002 shims should have bound the cylinder up, actually it should have been difficult to close! The fact that 8, .016, didn't have any effect is exactly what indicates someone has apparently been tinkering with the gun sometime in the past. Someone who did not know what he was doing!!!!!!!!!

 

[fredg19]

In the past someone, not understanding how things work, cut the end of the yoke barrel for who knows what reason, and the gas ring is bearing against the flange on the front of the yoke barrel instead of on the back end.

My thoughts exactly, but I think it came from the factory this way as this gun just seems to have not been shot or even handled much.

I will take some measurements and see what I get. Thanks....

 

[What the]

Alk,

I didn't read the statement FredG19 made correctly thanks for the correction, I get confused easily, I assumed he was measuring his clearance @ the front not the rear of the cylinder.....you da man...

 

[fredg19]

Well it looks like it is 1.44. So they questions are...

If I leave it alone will I trash my gun if I shoot it?
Can I add ~9 .004 bearings to make up what I am short?
Am I looking at replacing the yoke? And if so, does it need to be fitted?

 

[4D5]

Stretch the yoke barrel

Another option, used by S&W, is to stretch the the yoke barrel.

The steps are:

Face the end of the yoke barrel to square/clean up the bearing surface

Then, with a yoke alignment tool inserted into the yoke, use a yoke stretching tool which looks like a copper tubing cutter with a dulled cutter.

Lots of stretch and check, but even if yours has been shortened a lot you should be able to get by with one or no bearing shims.

You also want to look at the bottom of the cylinder to see what kind of shape the cylinder bearing surface is in. I recently bought an excellent 568, with no end shake, but after stripping to clean, the bottom of the cylinder looks like it was machined with a backhoe.

With a little help from this forum, you could buy the tools for the cost of having a gunsmith or S&W do the work and then forever be able to fix any revolver you get. Take your time, ask for help and you can't go wrong.

4D5

 

[Alk8944]

fredg19 was answered on a PM. Yoke stretching works fine if not more than .005 is concerned. His is short by about .040, more than the wall thickness of the yoke. Stretching will not work in this case.

Naturally replacing the yoke is an option. This should be factory fit though. If cosmetics aren't important another used yoke will probably be close enough, but it has to be from a 19, other K frame yokes have a different profile below the extractor rod.

 

[Dpris]

Send to factory & hope for the best.
Denis

 

[STCM(SW)]

Send to factory & hope for the best.
Denis

My thoughs on this problem also.

 

[ms]

If you measure the

length of the part of the yoke that goes into the cylinder, and the depth of the hole into the cylinder, you should be able to figure out pretty accurately how thick of a washer you would need. I made some up a few years ago out of feeler gauge stock, I think up to 0.030", and they worked well.

 

[fredg19]

Thanks MS, Alk8944 also suggested using a feeler gauge to fabricate a shim. I think I may try this and see how it turns out.

 

[stantheman86]

I don't get it. I had a 4" Model 28 that was loose as a Maraca it had so much endshake........it took 4 endshake bearings to tighten it up, but it did work.

I don't see how 8 bearings would have no effect.

Endshake bearings are actually good for the gun, they will protect the cylinder from excessively slamming into the yoke and making the issue worse. Bearings wear better than the end of the yoke.

On a related note, I have several new S&W and Ruger revolvers that came with some endshake. They leave the factory within "spec", but some have more than others. Odds are, even the ones on the "looser" end of the spectrum will never give their owners problems, just they over 10's of thousands of rounds they will loosen up faster.

 

[fredg19]

I don't get it. I don't see how 8 bearings would have no effect.

My guess, since this gun appears nearly new and barely shot, is the factory cut the yoke barrel about .040 to short, based on my measurements, that's why the .016 worth of bearings did nothing. I need to start at .040 just to get close, then I can fine tune it with a couple more bearings.

If not the factory then some home gunsmith that had no clue screwed up the yoke.

Really .040 is really small, 1/16 inch is .063 and 1/16 is really small!

 

[fredg19]

Well I tried to work with a feeler gauge and then a stainless washer. The feeler gauge and Stainless proved to be to hard to work with without the right tools.

Next I tried a hardened washer. I got lucky and found one with the perfect size center hole, which would have been the hardest part to get right.

Next I put the washer over the shank of a drill bit with tape on either side of the washer to keep it in place. I then used my bench grinder to slowly cut down the washer to fit into the cylinder.

With that done, I next had to thin the washer to about .037. That took just sitting in my recliner with a fine file and rubbing the washer over it for awhile (it started at about .055).

Now I have my spacer. I tried it by itself and it was almost perfect, had about .002 to .003 endshake. I pulled it back out to smooth it out a bit more as it was still kind of rough. I then put it back in with 2 .002 endshake bearings.

I now have a solid snug .001 endshake. The cylinder opens and closes smooth and the head space is good. And I have a solid .008 cylinder barrel gap.

I don't know how long the hardened washer will last but I now know I can fix the problem this way. I may need to make a stainless one down the road but this will get me going!!

 

[brucev]

Good! Glad you were able to fix the problem!

 

[fredg19]

Good! Glad you were able to fix the problem!

Thanks Bruce! I am sure there are some that would roll their eyes at my redneck gun smithing but I have had enough mechanical experience with other things to feel confident this will work, especially with gunsmith Alk8944 giving me the idea to make a larger spacer.

Like I said I will need to watch it closely, worse case it loosens up and I make a new one out of stainless or buy a stack of .004 endshake bearings.

 

[Ltlbear]

I admire your ingenuity. Worst case the washer you made compresses a little or wears a little and you add another bushing. I would have put one of the stainless bushing on each side of the washer to help prevent wear but I bet the hardened steel washer is as hard or harder than the yoke steel anyway.

 

[fredg19]

I admire your ingenuity. Worst case the washer you made compresses a little or wears a little and you add another bushing. I would have put one of the stainless bushing on each side of the washer to help prevent wear but I bet the hardened steel washer is as hard or harder than the yoke steel anyway.

Thanks Ltlbear, I had the exact same thought of using the stainless bushing on each side of my washer!!

But I was so happy with the results I didn't want to take it back apart!! I may let it go for awhile and see what happens. And I also had the same thought, that the hardened washer was going to be harder than the yoke so it should be fine.