Forward Assist

[cyphertext]

The lack of a FA does not make the Sport low end, lots of AR's with one are low end. However the lack of a dust cover does make the Sport low end or a hobby gun i.e. not a firearm I would select for self defense or survival use.

I'm going to disagree with this statement as well. An AR-15 without an ejection port cover is perfectly capable as a self defense / home defense rifle. Are you dragging it through sand, mud, and muck as you go down the hallway to see what the dog is barking at?

As far as survival, mine has ridden in the back of the pickup, on a rack on the jeep, and on a rack on the four wheeler while running around a ranch in west Texas. The thing gets filthy, covered with red dust and dirt, and dust from the gravel roads outside the fence.

Even with all the dust and dirt, my Sport has never let me down. When they first came out, there was an article about testing it at Gunsite, and the author was throwing dirt into the action to see if he could force a stoppage, and never did.

I wouldn't mind an ejection port cover, but I haven't experienced a failure caused by not having one.

 

[JaPes]

Ya the Tavor is very high on my want list but the price is up there... I wish I had someone that had one I could shoot...I don`t know much about the Sig 556Xi..Jim

I had the pleasure of shooting 10 rounds out of an acquaintance's rifle. Dude picked it up at the small LGS and let everyone have a few shots. Ergos are comfy for me. My only gripe is the trigger. The Sig 556xi is their new modular platform. 5.56, 300 BLK, and a 7.62 x 39. Haven't held one yet.

My only reservation is that I'm not a long gun enthusiast. I can make do with one of a type. I have one bolt action rifle, one pump action shotgun, one .22lr rifle. The only reason I have two AR-15's is because I had to build one.

The AR's I have can fling lead downrange just the same as any other rifle. Part of me does not see the point of acquiring another 5.56 semi auto.

 

[WardenRoss]

The AR-10 had a dust cover (and thus a bolt carrier scallop to operate it) almost identical to the AR-15's.

Gracias amigo for the pictures.

I'm assuming that finger loop inside the carry handle is the original charging handle. If this is true, folks have something else to argue about concerning "original" intentions on the AR.

My old retired Air Force buddy says he won't own an AR without a carry handle. "It just ain't right."

I don't argue about my choice in acquiring my Sport. I just shoot small groups of holes with it.

 

[-db-]

I'm assuming that finger loop inside the carry handle is the original charging handle.

Correct. You can see the operation in this video: The Armalite AR-10 - YouTube

 

[spad124]

For a pretty good visual history of changes (development) of the M16 receivers look at the NoDak Spud website. NDS produces upper and lower receivers for those who like retro ARs. They are still behind from last year's panic, but are slowly catching up.

 

[Vinney47]

A lot of this just doesn't make sense. I can understand defending the Sport as not being "low end" if that notion somehow offends.

But I just don't get the attack on the FA. It's a way to move the bolt forward. Sometimes it's an easy fix for operator error, such as if you didn't pull the charging handle all the way back prior to releasing and there wasn't enough force to fully chamber the round. Or you rode the charging handle back in, for whatever reason. Is the FA the only way to remedy this? No, but it's not a bad way either.

But it might be the difference in a tactical situation. Such as already mention for a quieter way to chamber a round. Maybe you are in a cramped spot and you can't operate the charging handle fully, but the FA makes it possible to get the gun to operating ability.

If you are hunting and don't want to scare/startle the game, the FA can offer a quieter way to chamber the round when used in conjunction with riding the charging handle.

To sit there and imply the FA is an error, bread from ignorance and added for politics is silly. To insult the FA so implies that designs without are superior, models without are superior; and the models with carry a handicap, a burden, a deformation. Is that really what's trying to be said here by those who turn their nose up at the FA?

Yes. The Sport lacks an FA. big deal. My car lacks a camera that shows what's behind my rear bumper. Doesn't mean my car is a piece of junk. But it also doesn't mean I have to talk about all the car designs that don't have back-up cameras (even pricey ones), how people get along fine without them, perseverate on an issue they might cause for careless people, and bring up that Ford didn't put them on his model T. The back up camera is a useful tool, and by all sane people and improvement to the automobile. So is the FA to the AR15. If your model doesn't have one, you don't have to be ashamed of it, but please get over it.

 

[gm272gs]

...But I just don't get the attack on the FA...

I may be wrong, but the "attack" is more on the Mall Ninja types who believe that a rifle of this type without FA is somehow sub-par and not "Army-Guy-Enough".

...in a tactical situation...

If you're in a "tactical situation" or expect yourself to be, your weapon should already be loaded and at the ready.

...To insult the FA so implies that designs without are superior, models without are superior; and the models with carry a handicap, a burden, a deformation. Is that really what's trying to be said here by those who turn their nose up at the FA?...

See Mall Ninja thought, above.

A lot of really finicky competition-shooters use slick-sided (no FA) uppers because they don't need or want the FA. Heck, a lot of them load rounds into the chamber one at a time. They do this because the rounds they hand-load are too long to fit in a standard magazine, and they don't want to put a scratch on the projectile. Yeah, it comes down to being that important. You can get a mag well insert that effectively makes an AR-15 a single-shot rifle (it gives you a smooth ramp to set the cartridge on, before you slide it in.)

 

[Benfiltness]

The AR-10 had a dust cover (and thus a bolt carrier scallop to operate it) almost identical to the AR-15's.

Love the charging handle. Possible to retrofit to M&P10 or M&P15??

 

[JaPes]

To Forward Assist or not Forward Assist, that is the question.

I apologize if any of my comments in this thread are inflammatory. I agree that a forward assist is useful when needed. It has been my personal experience that I've never needed to use one. I only shoot on a range. I don't get the opportunity to go hunting.

If a firearms enthusiast who has never owned an AR-15 and is on a budget of $650 for just the rifle, the M&P 15-Sport is a good choice. It provides the necessities (aside from ammo) to go shoot and earn some trigger experience right out of the box: rifle, mag, sights. The 15-Sport is the gateway to modern sporting rifle ownership in the M&P 15 line. All the advantages have already been posted. The 15-Sport may be someone's one and only AR, and they are content. Many decide to indulge their AR-15 enthusiasm with a 2nd.

 

[cyphertext]

I had a long winded response typed up for Vinney and trashed it, because gm272gs summed it up nicely above.

It isn't an attack on the forward assist, it is more of a defense of my choice to not have one. I can take it or leave it. For my use, the forward assist is of no benefit. For hunting, if I ride my charging handle and the bolt doesn't close, I can bump it forward with my thumb. At the range, I follow SPORTS as I was trained in the military, without the T (tap the forward assist). I've already cleared the offending round and if my bolt carrier fails to go into battery again, I need to stop shooting and figure out what is going on.

 

[Bugs Bunny]

I have used it to quietly as possible load the chamber, sometimes (NFA stuff) that auto sear will not let the bolt close fully while closing bolt slowly with charging handle.

I have noticed this on regular AR15's as well, a little bump on the FA handle ensures full lock up of bolt & gun will fire when trigger is pulled.

did not read all the debate but you have my actual use of it.

 

[Dino1]

I was out at the range the other day, it was 10 degrees out. I usually shoot .556 through my rifle exclusively. But this day I loaded up 8 mags with Federal .223. The rifle would fire... eject the spent round... but would not fire the next round. If I hit the forward assist it would fire the next round every time. It was not going fully into battery. We finally changed the buffer to a carbine buffer and the problem was solved. Had I been in the field without the forward assist, well who knows the out come of that until it happens. So yes the forward assist might save your butt someday if needed. This was the first time I ever had to use one, but glad I had it.

 

[mbnatt]

Useless accessory for normal use, has limited use for Military! Added as a feelgood accessory because McNamara was cheep ****! No chrome barrels, no cleaning kits, and the wrong powder!

 

[cyphertext]

I was out at the range the other day, it was 10 degrees out. I usually shoot .556 through my rifle exclusively. But this day I loaded up 8 mags with Federal .223. The rifle would fire... eject the spent round... but would not fire the next round. If I hit the forward assist it would fire the next round every time. It was not going fully into battery. We finally changed the buffer to a carbine buffer and the problem was solved. Had I been in the field without the forward assist, well who knows the out come of that until it happens. So yes the forward assist might save your butt someday if needed. This was the first time I ever had to use one, but glad I had it.

Not trying to be a jerk, but although you continued shooting, the weapon was not functioning properly. Instead of correcting the issue, you used the forward assist as a Band-Aid. This is perfectly understandable in a combat environment, but I would rather get the firearm to function properly than bump a FA while shooting at the range.

Does the firearm typically function with the buffer and .223 ammo when temperatures are above freezing? If so, I would look to the lubrication as being the issue, not the buffer. If not, what ammo are you using and what buffer and spring?

 

[zoom6zoom]

Possibility of it causing deeper problems if used incorrectly. If used to force a damaged or dirty round into the chamber, said round stands a good chance of not extracting, and putting the rifle out of service entirely.

 

[Maddmax]

*Sigh*

M16 : Documentary on the M16 Assault Rifle - YouTube

Now this one, at 15:25 into it the man himself expresses his incredulity that the M16 was issued without a cleaning kit.

M-16 vs AK-47 - YouTube

What you have to put into context is the politics and procurement of the time. WW2 just ended, officers and generals came from that time. They were used to 30 caliber, wood and steel. Every branch of the armed services procured it's own firearms to different standards.

Enter Robert McNamera. Harvard MBA. He served in WW2 in the office of statistical control. He analyzed efficiency and effectiveness of bombing runs. Eventually he becomes the CEO of Ford Motor Company. He then is tapped to serve as Secretary of Defense under Kennedy and Johnson.

You get a progressive administration embracing the "space age" and emerging computing technology. You add in a Secretary of Defense that comes from the business world that wants to streamline the DoD procurement process to be more financially efficient. You have a guy and his "whiz kid" team who run things by the numbers.

You have two philosophically opposed groups going at each other. Both were right, both were wrong.

McNamera and his team ran by spreadsheet. .223 ammunition is less expensive to produce than 30 caliber. Soldiers can carry more rounds. More rounds = more chances at killing enemies. Their error was in trying to make the rifle as inexpensive as possible, against Eugene Stoner's design.

• No Chrome Line Bore
• Ball powder instead of cleaner stick powder
• It's space age! No need to clean it. No need to spend extra on cleaning supplies and training.

Rifles jamming? Well let's just add a forward assist, no need to clean.

The old military establishment wanted the rifle to fail, they wanted the procurement process that McNamera mandated to fail. I'm willing to bet that military leaders didn't speak up as all of the changes go against firearms common sense.

All of this and more went into the design evolution of the M16/AR15. It wasn't just a Eugene Stoner design. The political and military industrial complex of the day had as much sway into what got issued.

Couldn't have said it better my friend (I often wonder how we survived it). I grew up durring that time and you are right on the money. OUTSTANDING !!!

 

[Dino1]

Not trying to be a jerk, but although you continued shooting, the weapon was not functioning properly. Instead of correcting the issue, you used the forward assist as a Band-Aid. This is perfectly understandable in a combat environment, but I would rather get the firearm to function properly than bump a FA while shooting at the range.

Does the firearm typically function with the buffer and .223 ammo when temperatures are above freezing? If so, I would look to the lubrication as being the issue, not the buffer. If not, what ammo are you using and what buffer and spring?

If read my post carefully I stated that we changed the buffer back to the carbine buffer and all was well from that point on.
Rifle fired, ejected, stripped the next round, chambered it, but lacked going back into total battery by about 1/16th of an inch.
Lube and cold could have been a factor, we tried more lube while their, but it was probably a combination of things like cold, type of lube, lower than normal power ammo, ect. carbine buffer got us through the rest of the range session, and another one after that day without problem using the same ammo. I buy my ammo in bulk, and this is the only .223 ammo I have ever run through this rifle.
Original question was about a forward assist, and all I stated was the one time with this particular rifle I had to use it. and it helped me diagnose the problem.

 

[cyphertext]

If read my post carefully I stated that we changed the buffer back to the carbine buffer and all was well from that point on.
Rifle fired, ejected, stripped the next round, chambered it, but lacked going back into total battery by about 1/16th of an inch.
Lube and cold could have been a factor, we tried more lube while their, but it was probably a combination of things like cold, type of lube, lower than normal power ammo, ect. carbine buffer got us through the rest of the range session, and another one after that day without problem using the same ammo. I buy my ammo in bulk, and this is the only .223 ammo I have ever run through this rifle.
Original question was about a forward assist, and all I stated was the one time with this particular rifle I had to use it. and it helped me diagnose the problem.

I read that you changed the buffer back to a carbine buffer, hence my question as to if it would run with the heavy buffer and that ammo when the temperature is above freezing? Was this your first time using this ammo?

 

[Maddmax]

Thanks!

So, we can all agree that the dust cover was there from the get go. Brass deflector wasn't, but we can all agree (especially the lefties) that the deflector is a good thing. Forward assist or no forward assist, personal preference.

That is VERY correct. No deflector. NOT good for lefties. Nothing like hot brass going in and down the front of your fatigue uniform. Short burst was a mad rush to get your shirt un-tucked,but it was already too late. What we did was cut small "blocks" of wood and taped them where (the now) deflector is molded into. It worked

 

[Maddmax]

My only reservation is that I'm not a long gun enthusiast. I can make do with one of a type. I have one bolt action rifle, one pump action shotgun, one .22lr rifle. The only reason I have two AR-15's is because I had to build one.
Part of me does not see the point of acquiring another 5.56 semi auto.

Wish I could say that. But I'm an old fart and not all of them just popped in overnight. But none are exactly the same,they all have a niche.