Found a model 1 today

[Bobbysixkiller]

I was window shopping in an antique shop today and stumbled on a model 1. Not sure if it's 1-1st or 2nd. I didn't handle it as I was waiting for 4 o clock to get my taxes done and didn't have much time. It looked fairly rough but complete. Asking $600. Seems high to me. Sorry I don't have much info. Was that a fair price or high ? I'm sure it's marked up being in the antique shop. Also the reason I'm thinking it was a model 1 is it was square butt tip up. Very small. There is a chance it's a 1 1/2 early I suppose. Any ballpark is fine. I was thinking $200 but thought I'd ask the experts as I don't have a tip up. Thank you in advance.

 

[Bobbysixkiller]

After reading in my book it's definitely a model 1 1st or 2nd. I wish I had taken a picture.

 

[BMur]

Hey Bobby,
Need more info. Assuming you are talking about the .22rf? Models 1 through 3? The variations of models 1 1/2 were .32rf. Earliest variations of the Model 1 .22 Rf have a round side plate on a rounded frame. Those are worth a lot! Need a serial number range? Later variations have a flat sided brass frame. As usual it depends on condition, all matching, level of finish remaining, action functional? Etc. A good photo would help or you can look through fladermans?

 

[Bobbysixkiller]

I know I need more info. It is definitely 22rf. I will get back over there and get a picture. Probably be a few days as I'm sure they are closed tomorrow. I don't remember what the side plate looked like. Condition was rough. Unknown if it was functional. I'll check it out more.

 

[BMur]

It's likely a Model 1-2nd variation. S&W manufactured roughly 117,000. Brass frame with large side plate. Wood grips standard with non fluted cylinder. Most I've seen are silver finished. You mentioned it's rough? Still most were made before and during the Civil War with the end of production about 1868. I honestly haven't been following the market on these but you could watch other auctions til next week and see what they sell for? Use the search Smith and Wesson 22 cal Model 1 2nd variation and several come up. Compare those for sale or on auction with the one you saw at the shop. $600 does seem a bit high though. If it is the earlier round frame model 1 with round side plate? It's worth more than $600! I'd have to see it though? Good luck!

 

[BMur]

Hey Bobby,
Check out this one on Gunbroker.com; Go to that website and on the search put in this number 797213834. What will come up is likely the one you saw at the antique shop only this one is probably in much better shape? The auction is up tomorrow so this will give you an idea of what they are worth?
BMur

 

[glowe]

If the gun is a 1st Issue with a round body frame, it is a great buy, but if it is a Model 2, 2nd Issue, it is waaaaay high! Lot of sellers have no knowledge of what they are selling when it comes to S&W tip-ups. Visually, the Model 1 1/2 has a cylinder that is longer than it is high, while the Model 1 is opposite, with a short cylinder.

Also, the Model 1 frame was silver plated so, unless it is worn away, you will not see brass. Maybe $200 to $250??

 

[first-model]

As others have said, if it's a Model 1, 2nd Issue, then it's likely overpriced at $600. 1-2's are generally only worth that if they're in exceptional condition or are one of the rare variants (straight side plate, Kittredge-marked, or 2nd Quality marked).

If it's a Model 1, 1st Issue, then it's almost certainly worth $600, and potentially more if it's one of the earlier variants.

Mike

 

[H Richard]

Here's a picture of all three, 1st Issue, 2nd Issue, 3rd Issue, from top to bottom. There are variations of each, mostly with the 1st Issue, I believe 5 variations. Most significant noticeable parts of a 1st Issue is the round side plate, and the articulated hammer. The 2nd Issue the square butt, Third Issue, the round butt and fluted cylinder.

 

[BMur]

Hey Bobby,
Not sure if you followed that auction but that Model 1-2nd variation sold for $487 not including shipping. That surprised me! I mean it rated about antique fine condition with significant Silver on brass frame but the bluing was definitely helped in the cylinder and barrel and one of the grips was split. So I guess the value on these has come up a bit?

 

[glowe]

The second style Model 1 is properly called a 2nd Issue, not variation. Prices on S&W top-breaks have not gone up and have been steady to slight decline in the last 5 years or so. Especially, the 32 Rimfire models due to the lack of ammunition since Navy Arms quit importing.

If you look at Supica/Nahas 2016 book you will find a Model 1, 2nd Issue in Fine condition is valued at $600. There are so few Fine and better specimens coming up for sale that one does not see the prices that can be realized for high quality Model 1. An excellent example listed at $1200 and Excellent Plus for $2500, while a Good example is $350 and Fair is $250. I think most of those that I have seen sell in recent times is generally less than quoted above.

 

[iby]

I think this one is Fine+
$390 Gunbroker

 

[Bobbysixkiller]

I still have to get back over there and look again. Work n alll. It's 30 miles away. But I'll definitely go back to make sure. Thanks for all the information gents.

 

[mnrivrat]

As you sort of noted the gun to be in rough condition, the only way it could come close to a $600 value is if it was a Model 1 first issue with the rounded frame and small round side plate.

A 2nd or 3rd issue Model 1 would have to be in pristine condition to bring that kind of money. (exceptions being mentioned).

A note on pricing: In general, it appears all collectables markets have been experiencing lower values. Firearms included . Something to keep in mind when buying or selling.

 

[JayFramer]

Even .22 Rimfire Short was considered an excellent manstopper back in the days when even a paper cut was considered a death sentence!

 

[mdk220]

Adding to the info

Model 1 - 1st Issue
Smith and Wesson Model 1 - 1st Issue
The S&W Model 1 1st Issue is the most rare. Only 12,000 were produced over 3 years.
The distinguishing features for the 1st issue are:
• flared, square cornered shaped grip (also featured in the 2nd Issue)
• split articulated hammer
• small round side plate located between the rear of the cylinder and the grip (similar to early Colt open tops)
• in early models a flat spring barrel mount catch.
There are said to also be 6 sub-variations within the 1st Issue. Each of these include minor changes in design such as the barrel latch going form a flat spring to a bayonet style. The barrel rifling and recoil shield was also changed.
Serial Numbers range for Model 1 1st issue were 1-12,000
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Model 1 - 2nd Issue
S&W Model 1 - 2nd Issue
The 2nd Issue of the Model 1 shares the same grip and frame design as the 1st issue so they are often confused. There are several notable differences listed below.
• The side plate on the 2nd Issue was much larger and irregularly shaped replacing the round one.
• The profile of the frame was more flat
• the hammer was now made in one piece
110,000 2nd Issues were produced from 1860- 1868
Serial numbers range 12,000 - 120,000
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------
Model 1- 3rd Issue
Smith and Wesson Model 1- 3rd Issue
The Model 1 3rd Issue included a more substantial change in design from the 1st and 2nd Issue.
Changes included:
fluted cylinder
round barrel
rounded "bird's head" style grip
Finish options included nickel plate and blued steel
Produced from 1868 through 1882, the 3rd Issues were serial number range 1 - 131,000.

..................................................................................................................................................................
The Model 1 1/2 had three issues. The first two (known as the first and second issues) were "tip-up" revolvers with the barrel release catch located on the side of the frame in front of the trigger, while the third (known as the "Model 1 1/2 Single Action Revolver") was a "top-break", with the barrel release catch located on the top of the frame, just in front of the hammer.
---------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Model 1 1/2 1st Issue
S&W Model 1 1/2 1st Issue
The first issue of the Model 1 1/2 can be identified by :
· smooth cylinder (lacking fluting)
· square shape of the grip butt
· blued or nickel plated finishes
· most had 3 1/2" barrels, 4" barrel were made but less common
Serial number range 1 - 26,300
---------------------------------------------------------------------------
Model 1 1/2 - 2nd Issue

The second issue of the Model 1 1/2 features:
· rounded barrel
· rounded shape of the grip butt
· also produced in blued steel and nickel plated finish
· commonly 3 1/2" barrel, A rare 2 1/2" barrel was also made with the barrel markings on the side of the barrel as opposed to the top strap on 3 1/2" barrels.
2nd Issue serial numbered consecutively after the 1st Issue were 26,300 - 127,000.
There was a transitional run in 2nd issue that used unrounded 1st issue barrels. The serial number range for transitional models was approximately 27,200 through 28,800.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Single Action Revolver
Smith & Wesson Model No. 1 1/2 Single Action Revolver
The third issue Model 1 1/2 is known as the "Model No. 1 1/2 Single Action Revolver"
There were major changes in this model including:
· Top break design (just forward of the hammer)
· No ejector rod under the barrel
· large hinge located in front of and just below the barrel
· an extractor that ejects spent cartridges when the barrel is opened
· rounded butt grips similar to ones on the 2nd Issue
· marked the debut of the .32 S&W centerfire cartridge.
Serial numbers range 1 - 97,500

 

[Patbar]

650 1 1/2 transitional models were produced in February-March 1869 by mixing the second issue's frame not only with the first issue's barrel but also its cylinder.

 

[BMur]

Hey Patbar,
Smith & Wesson factory called them Mongrels. I know collectors call them transitional. Super rare and I think that's why few people acknowledge them at all.

 

[Patbar]

Hey Patbar,
Smith & Wesson factory called them Mongrels. I know collectors call them transitional. Super rare and I think that's why few people acknowledge them at all.

I didn't know how the S&W factory called them. I took the word "transitional" from Norm Flayderman's guide.

I was lucky enough to get my Mongrel 1 1/2 model for $450 three years ago.

 

[JSR III]

I think that sometimes the books state prices that the authors would like to see more than what buyers pay in reality. Condition is also a major factor. One man's 75% might be another man's 50%. Usually with the first being the seller and the second being the buyer.

Other factors are that auction prices are sometimes not the norm and although many times an indicator of the market, there are those where two buyers get into a "he is not going to beat me" mentality and the price reflects an injection of testosterone more than reality.

The other factor is that many of the younger buyers have no interest in a 100+ year old black powder revolver and are more interested in black plastic guns that fire 15 or more rounds. This tends to limit the buying pool to those of us old persons that are still looking to add one of these older guns to our collection before we head off to the big gun show in the sky.

My thoughts on the subject, yours may vary........