FS 9 Shooting Low

[ric_in_or]

I use my Full Size 9mm M&P in IDPA SSP.
I shot low all last weekend, so I had the most accurate shooter I know run it bullseye last night.

2in low at 25 feet.
Tight group - 3shots touching, 5 touch a quarter.


Is this something I should have my gunsmith adjust - I presume by filing the front sight? Or, would I be better off doing something else?



In case you are not familiar, typical IDPA distance is Contact to 35 yards (105 ft) Most targets will be shot 10-25 yards.
I don't have the math, but 2in at 25ft would be 6in at 25yds, which is a miss on the down zero or head shots.

 

[AR-Getsome]

Check the charts out. How do you cover the target with your sights? I shoot IDPA also and my FS9 shoot dead on target. Is the a new M&P? Have you changes the sights?

 

[USMarine1989]

Sounds like the gun is running fine, sounds like your fundamentals are fine. Have you tried different grains of rounds? Experiment with different ammo types and manufactures. See what your M&P likes. If things remain the same then try switching out the sights. I have a M&P9 pro and I have found for me that 124 grain Lawman do well. Just a thought and my opinion, but just give this a try first.

 

[AGoyette]

I would shoot it from a rest before I do anything to the gun. My husbands new 9c was shooting low for us. He had me shoot it because I have one and shoot it stock for about 700 rounds. It shot really low for me at 20-25 ft. I was convinced that it was the gun, but to eliminate us as the issue I had the gunsmith shoot it from a gun rest. It was us.. I guess I got used to the Apex modifications that I did to my 9c faster than I thought. Though the gunsmith did say that the trigger was awful.

 

[M&PmikeC]

ar getsome.... shouldn't everyone be using site number 3 I would imagine that's the correct way to firing a weapon while shooting at a target

 

[Bearstopper]

Mine shoots low unless I put the front dot covering the desired POI. Seems to shoot even lower progressively with heavier bullets.

 

[Rastoff]

ar getsome.... shouldn't everyone be using site number 3 I would imagine that's the correct way to firing a weapon while shooting at a target

No, number 2 is how the M&P is built. Even so, there isn't enough difference between 2 and 3 to worry about.

Later I'll post pics why 3 is not the best choice.

 

[Maddmax]

All mine (9's & 45's) shoot dead on at number 2.

 

[prairie]

ric in or,
If you and others can shoot acceptable groups with your pistol, modify the sights so that it hits where you are aiming, regardless of where it shoots for others.
The chart AR-Getsome posted up is great, but if you can shoot nice groups and are consistent and comfortable with your shooting style, I would not try to modify your shooting style, but modify the sights instead.
I worked as gunsmith and on a couple different shooting ranges, and learned that shooters need to use what works for themselves, which may not work for me or you. Just because you may have one of the "faults" on the chart does not mean you are wrong, as long as you are consistent and shoot groups that are acceptable to you. People and their hands come in all shapes and sizes, and it is not a one size fits all deal.

 

[M&PmikeC]

I cant understand how not pointing the muzzle at the center of said target as shown in num 2 would get you a center shot dead on ...

 

[Rastoff]

Please excuse me Mike, but I'm not quite following your question. Based on this:

...not pointing the muzzle at the center of said target...

...none of the sight pictures shown would work. Yet, all of those sight pictures are pointing the muzzle at the center of the target, just in different ways. Maybe there is something that's not clear in how I'm perceiving your understanding of how sights work.

So, I'm going to give a little primer on how pistol sights are used. Maybe this will answer your question in a round about way.

The Six O'clock Hold

This is most commonly used by bullseye target shooters. The top of the front sight is aligned with the top of the rear sight. Then both are placed just at the bottom of the target circle. This allows the shooter to see the whole of the bullseye even though it will be a little blurry. For this sight picture to work, the dot on the target must always be the same size. Change the size of the dot and the shot will no longer travel to the center.



The Center Hold

This is most commonly used by defensive shooters and competition action shooters. It is the same as the Six O'clock Hold in that the top of the front sight is aligned with the top of the rear sight for proper sight alignment. It is different in that the sights are then placed in the center of the target. For defensive shooting, this is preferred. By holding at the center of the target, it doesn't matter how far away it is or how big it is, the center is always the center. It is not as precise as the Six O'clock hold because it's not always easy to know exactly where the center is. Especially when the target is blurry; which it should be.


The Combat Hold (#3 in the picture from post #2)
There are other names for this, but I believe this is the most common. This is where you line up all the dots. However, there is a problem when this is attempted in real life. The picture from post #2 is not realistic, all the dots do not appear the same size. On a real gun, they are the same physical size, but because the front sight is further away, it appears smaller. Like this:

This is a picture I took of my M&P 40c. If it were a full size gun, the front sight would appear even smaller.

As you can see in the pic, the dots cannot be reliably lined up due to the apparent size difference.


Misaligned sights will be more problematic the further away the target is. So, sight alignment is critical the further the shot. I will go into detail about angles vs parallel lines if you like, but I don't want to overload this at this time.

 

[prairie]

Great post Rastoff!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

 

[M&PmikeC]

rastoff... so ill ask this... Does holding at the 6oclock hold... with the front and rear sights lined up evenly at just below the center of the target react the same at all distances... as to what im saying is if I were to do this hold and align just below the center of the target would in a perfect scenario the bullet hit bullseye at 5 yards or 30 yards and all in between... This obviously taking out the wind, hand movement, Breathing... etc etc

 

[Rastoff]

The answer to your question is no, but it applies to all the sight pictures not just one.

All projectiles travel in an arc like this:

Therefore, there are two distances where the sights will be right on. One as the bullet crosses the line of sight on the way up and another on the way down. Every other distance will not be perfectly sighted in.

Handguns, especially defensive handguns, are short range tools. Typically they are not used beyond 25 yards. Because of this short range, there is not a lot of variation in point of impact vs distance. For defensive shooting it's not really worth putting a lot of thought into.

The .45ACP for example, is fairly flat out to 30 yards or so:

So, unless you're a bullseye shooter where fractions of an inch are important, it's nothing to worry about.

 

[Rastoff]

One more thing, the Six O'clock hold cannot be used with the M&P unless you change out the sights. It is designed to use a Center Hold sight picture.

 

[ric_in_or]

Just bit of follow up -
Post 2 - I am familiar with the chart, I don't think it applies to the designated shooter. Me, yes no doubt.
Post 3 - thank you, but the tight grouping is not my shooting.
I hope the solution isn't to goto a different bullet weight; I have spend the past year slowing getting a supply of 115gr to use in competition. But it is worth trying.
Post 4 - I don't know I could be better than 3 touching from a rest.


In IDPA there is no marks you have to kind of know where your scoring zones are. The chest down zero is above the center line of the target. The area is either a square 6x6 (head) or a circle 8in round.
http://2.bp.blogspot.com/-np2ZekFVV...uk/jq3SlhBSf5k/s1600/official-IDPA-target.gif


For the test, my bullseye shooter was using an official 25yd bullseye target. like this one: http://www.kruger-us-targets.com/me...8eab33525d08d6e5fb8d27136e95/n/r/nra_b_35.png
The aim point is about the size of a dime. I was told held like "sight picture 2" above.


One of my personal shooting challenges is that at longer distances (30yds +) I have a tendency to look over the sights. If you were my SO you would hear me muttering "front sight, front sight, front sight". This is why I asked a bullseye shooter to give the pistol a try.


I'll try out some 124 and 147gr. Should those be still be low, I'll talk to my gunsmith about shaving the front sight; consider a replacement.


Thanks,

 

[Ranger17]

for what it's worth, my 1st try with my new 9c (really 1st time shooting a 9) a couple weeks ago had me quite low at 5-7 yds; while holding and standing the same as when i shoot my buckmark .22 (i'm pretty good with that one). I found trying to mimic how i shot the .22 was not working, so I had the range instructor (ex leo and now a trainer very familiar with the MP line) try mine. And it was right on. So with some improvements to my mechanics, i was able to end up in 2-3" groups at 7 yds, with the height being good. Not spectacular at all but gave me some needed confidence. I'd add i was shooting a variety of grain ammo and i didnt notice much difference at those distances. And at least i know the gun itself is good, it's this newbie that needs work.

 

[ric_in_or]

Follow up - Shot today - used a different weight bullet 124gr over the 115. Was not shooting as low - maybe an inch - 2 at 25 yds.

Got my head shots and my down-zeros

Now to find a supply ....

 

[rsrocket1]

It might be true that #2 is the proper hold, but that may be for 25 yards. I use #3 at 10 yards and this is what I got on Thursday while chronographing my 9mm loads in my M&P40 with the 9mm barrel. I always use #3 for my 10 yard practice shooting.

7/8" squares, 10 yards sitting at a table. I only wish I could shoot this well while standing