sipowicz
Member
20 feet? You must smoke 100s.
Glad I was Packing My 442
- Thread starter Old cop
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20 feet? You must smoke 100s.
photoman
Member
I suspect an old cop knows just fine how and when to use a J frame. I sure ain't going to second guess what happened.
bearfoot
US Veteran
glad the misses is ok. and it turned out well.
SAFireman
Member
I think that he needs to read the post about street robberies...Old Cop was right on the money. Decent and polite folks don't beg for cigarettes in the parking lot at 3am.
Here is the street robbery post for those that missed it awhile back Street robberies and you - The Basics - Page 1 - AR15.COM
Here is the street robbery post for those that missed it awhile back Street robberies and you - The Basics - Page 1 - AR15.COM
That is a fine read you linked, plenty of food for thought -- thank you.
Nope, not a troller. I just have reservations about someone drawing a firearm without provocation, only suspicion. That guy who asked for the cigarette has the same legal right to be there as the ex-cop who draw his firearm as a precaution. Is this what we've come to, we draw a gun anytime someone asks us for something or approaches us? And all of you find that acceptable? Really?
Were it any of us, and someone saw us do that, do you not think a MWAG call might be made? I'm all for being prepared "to" draw. Maybe the ex-cop was lucky that no one noticed him remove the gun and hide it behind his leg.
So throw all the flame you wish, but I'm a bit leery of those who instinctively "draw" a firearm, seen or unseen, at anything they perceive as a "possible" threat. As an ex-leo he may have been able to talk his way out of it had it been reported, but I don't think the common permit carrier would have, not without more substantial indication of a threat to life beyond the a request for a cigarette or some change for a cup of coffee.
I'll stand firm behind my principle of drawing only when threatened with harm and not before. I don't need jail time for what I "thought" might happen.
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Thanks for the story OldCop, and the lesson that comes with it.
I am the LEAST street-wise person in the world. I am trying to sharpen my skills though.
I have been approached by miscreants asking for cigarettes many times, in many poor locations, including just outside an ER in downtown Chicago. I was never carrying a gun, but by some grace of God I was never attacked. I've even had a couple of them 'surround' me (as well as two guys can do such a thing) and I got the heck out of there! Lucky for me I'm big, and my martial arts training taught me to keep distance and be ready and aware.
You know you did the right thing, in fact all but one of us knows you did the right thing. Now that I carry a weapon my stance when approached is holding one hand up instead of two like I used to do... The other is on my side arm.
Sorry to get off track and ramble on, I just wanted to say Thank You for your story and Thank You for your service to protect us all !
I am the LEAST street-wise person in the world. I am trying to sharpen my skills though.
I have been approached by miscreants asking for cigarettes many times, in many poor locations, including just outside an ER in downtown Chicago. I was never carrying a gun, but by some grace of God I was never attacked. I've even had a couple of them 'surround' me (as well as two guys can do such a thing) and I got the heck out of there! Lucky for me I'm big, and my martial arts training taught me to keep distance and be ready and aware.
You know you did the right thing, in fact all but one of us knows you did the right thing. Now that I carry a weapon my stance when approached is holding one hand up instead of two like I used to do... The other is on my side arm.
Sorry to get off track and ramble on, I just wanted to say Thank You for your story and Thank You for your service to protect us all !
I can legally draw my weapon when I feel threatened.
This man's 30 years of experience has taught him when he is in danger.
Let's use some common sense!
You need to LEARN from this not try to pretend you know something better...
old curmudgeon
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Of course the guy had the right to be there at 3:00 AM.
He also had the right to ask for a cigarette.
Are you so naive that you do not know that the successful con man or street robber always starts off his initial contact with something that is totally legal and innocent in appearance?
The guy who is waving a 3 ft. long sword advancing on you from 100 ft. away does not get very far.
Survivors are those that are able to see early in the contact that all is not what it appears to be.
Now back to the case in hand. The suspected BG had the right to be in the parking lot.
OK.
The suspected BG had the right to ask for a cigarette.
OK.
Now tell me something.
If you needed a smoke, would you go to a hospital parking lot on a cold winter night, at 3:00 AM just hoping someone who smokes and has a pack on him will show up before you freeze your *** off?
How many non-smokers, since smoking has become the thing not to do, would you have to process before you hit the right combination of a smoker with some on him?
Falling for that line is as dumb as falling for the "My car broke down, can I use your phone" knock on your front door.
When almost every kid in grade school has a cell, the welfare people hand out free phones, etc., no one needs to knock on your door on a dark night asking to use your phone.
Yet there are people, and I suspect you are one, that will invite them in to use your phone.
Asking for a cig at 3:00 AM in an isolated area is the same thing.
I have a good story that happened on a very dark night almost 40 years ago in which I dragged a guy about half a mile with his arm clamped in my truck window, and it all started with a conversation that he had the right to initiate in a place he had a right to be.
Had I not caught on to the fact that there was another guy standing at the rear of my truck, I might not be here today.
A good story and one day I will take the time to write it down.
He also had the right to ask for a cigarette.
Are you so naive that you do not know that the successful con man or street robber always starts off his initial contact with something that is totally legal and innocent in appearance?
The guy who is waving a 3 ft. long sword advancing on you from 100 ft. away does not get very far.
Survivors are those that are able to see early in the contact that all is not what it appears to be.
Now back to the case in hand. The suspected BG had the right to be in the parking lot.
OK.
The suspected BG had the right to ask for a cigarette.
OK.
Now tell me something.
If you needed a smoke, would you go to a hospital parking lot on a cold winter night, at 3:00 AM just hoping someone who smokes and has a pack on him will show up before you freeze your *** off?
How many non-smokers, since smoking has become the thing not to do, would you have to process before you hit the right combination of a smoker with some on him?
Falling for that line is as dumb as falling for the "My car broke down, can I use your phone" knock on your front door.
When almost every kid in grade school has a cell, the welfare people hand out free phones, etc., no one needs to knock on your door on a dark night asking to use your phone.
Yet there are people, and I suspect you are one, that will invite them in to use your phone.
Asking for a cig at 3:00 AM in an isolated area is the same thing.
I have a good story that happened on a very dark night almost 40 years ago in which I dragged a guy about half a mile with his arm clamped in my truck window, and it all started with a conversation that he had the right to initiate in a place he had a right to be.
Had I not caught on to the fact that there was another guy standing at the rear of my truck, I might not be here today.
A good story and one day I will take the time to write it down.
crofoot629
Absent Comrade
Wow! If I drew my pistol for every panhandler I'd be a busy man.
I never understood the pistol out and behind your leg thing either.
I was trained to keep the muzzle between me and the threat.
Emory
I never understood the pistol out and behind your leg thing either.
I was trained to keep the muzzle between me and the threat.
Emory
Spoken like someone who has never faced the business end of a gun or survived a near-miss by a knife wielding moron outside of combat (given your screen name I assume you may have served in combat). I have experienced both as a civilian (never been a LEO), and thank God I survived. I am more than a little careful about strangers asking me for anything let alone at 0300 in an isolated location.
Yes, you are right...the guy asking for a smoke has the right to be there. However, his right to be there has no bearing on the situation or what Old Cop did. It has nothing to do with his rights...it has everything to do with the right of a potential victim to be proactive and protect himself. The weapon wasn't brandished...Old Cop didn't point the weapon at the stranger...he simply had it ready to go IF the need arose. Thankfully it didn't.
SMSgt, you are obviously entitled to your opinion and I hope you stay vigilant and safe...but don't give a person with 30+ years of LE experience a hard time.
In the real world a person should see a threat in someone wanting to get close to you when it doesn't seem normal. Wanting a cigarette or asking directions is the oldest trick in the book. Two wanting to get close to one person or one person wanting to get close to an old man is "disparity of force" and should be viewed as a threat. Larry
USAF385
US Veteran
The OP's Spidey Senses started to tingle. Anybody who is saying he acted incorrectly is saying you should ignore your gut feelings. That doesn't do much for survival.
NFrameFred
Member
Well, I'll stand with those who think that when something doesn't feel quite right it's prudent to prepare for the worst, and a quote from, I believe, Mas Ayoob who once wrote that if you wait until you see the other guy's gun you'll likely see what comes out of it before you can react.
Without threatening or brandishing it is quite possible if the guy was up to no good that his feral instincts picked up on the OP's body language that said, "go find an easier victim".
And unless there was cop standing there to render a judgement call on the act constituting an offense there was no danger of 'jail time'; and if there had have been a cop there it would have negated the need for the action. I hope that with your view you're never put in situation that can go against you in a heartbeat since you'll be at the disadvantage.
I have answered a knock at my door in rural Georgia in the wee-wee hours on several occasions with a revolver in my hand, down by my leg, my body between me and the door. No need for the door-knocker to know I was armed unless I needed to let him know, and no need to give him the opportunity to rush me and grab my gun arm.
badge 851
US Veteran
Old cop; you Sir are a Class Act!
There is a world of difference of what one can do in a private residence vs a public place. Entirely different statutes apply for different settings.
For all you naysayers, I never said the OP should be arrested, only questioned his drawing a gun because someone asked for a cigarette. The perception of threat is what a "reasonable man" perceives; not you, not me, not the OP, but the those twelve "reasonable persons" that may be on a jury.
The point is not whether he was seen doing so, the no harm/no foul is irrelevent. Whether he "needed" to draw is a question that cannot be answered. His perception, base on his experience and training, compelled him to react as though he were still on the force, still making warrrant arests, etc.
What he felt was proper, what he may or may not have done while on the force, may very well put the common citizen who does the same thing in jail for aggravated assault.
I'm glad things worked out well for the OP. It may have worked out just as well with a holstered firearm--or no firearm at all, but that is not the basis of my original post.
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