Glock blows up!

[shovelwrench]

I think the big problem here is how obvious it is that an overpressure event can happen (whether its setback, or overcharge),and that certain handgun manufacturers fail to support cartridges enough that when it does happen, it goes out the barrel.

Why is it the Barsto barrel has WAY more support and still functions reliably, but Glock still makes barrels with the chamber throat so generous? When I built myself a 1911 in .38super, I put a ramped barrel in it, Why.. Full case support.

And I'm no engineer

It would probably help if more was done to educate people shooting autos about setback. I see it in my carry ammo, I rotate rounds, and shoot my magfull away after a while. The bugger about the kabooms you see with factory ammo is how do know if it was setback, flawed brass, overpressure, chamber support......

I'd bet its a combination of all these, but once that round goes off, how do you tell.. Would full chamber support eliminate this from happening, no, but it would cut it way down.IMO

 

[BruceM]

"Another was a 10mm Glock and he was doing the big no-no, shooting lead till he chambered it down to a 9mm, that caused him some hand burns and got him a new frame and a nasty letter."

Are you being facetious about the bore being leaded to that extent? If not, how as that determined and would the cause of the KB have been operator error?

A lot has been written about shooting cast bullets from Glocks because of the polygonal rifling. I know Glock does not recommend it but, then again, I know of no manufacturer who approves of shooting any reloaded ammo thru their guns. They seen to suggest that there is a systemic problem with shooting lead bullets thru the polygonal rifling which leads to leading, dramatically increased pressures and the subsequent KB. One fellow on the Glock Forum insists that an engineer who works as an expert witness in some suits against Glock has been able to reproduce the KB scenario but after that, detailed information other than the bullet used in the test had a BHN of 21 (linotype) is not given. The diameter of the bullet, bore diameter, bullet shape, lubricant and propellant charge are held confidential.

I have never had a leading issue with the polygonal rifling in my Springfield Armory Omega 10mm. Is the rifling in the Glock substantially different? I wouldn't think so but I'm curious. Is this a known issue with other handguns with polygonal rifling? You would think that the amount of lead fouling would have to be enormous in order to raise chamber pressures beyond that of a proof load and to the point of a catastrophic failure. It would seem more likely to me that the cause of the KB would be firing out of battery because of lead buildup at the lip of the chamber or setback of the cast bullet. Possibly it's not the polygonal rifling but the amount of leade (freebore) or lack of same in the Glock barrel which is the root of the problem?

I guess I need more information. I doubt that any of the resident reloading guru's at the gunzines will touch this with a 10 foot pole which is too bad.



Bruce

 

[dennis40x]

An important reference to understanding the Glock pistol: The Clock in Competition A shooters how to guide 2nd Ed (Chapters 1-3 & 1-4) extremely informative

 

[Skip Sackett]

Who needs them gun rag writers anyway?

I guess I need more information. I doubt that any of the resident reloading guru's at the gunzines will touch this with a 10 foot pole which is too bad.



Bruce

Who needs them anyway? We have enough knowledge here on this forum to be of help to one another! Bruce and others here like canoe on the yukon, and just a ton of other fine folks can share what all of us need to know to be safe and efficient in reloading for these kinds of firearms.

We will do it with knowledge and that is a good thing!

Dennis,
Without violating the copyright laws concerning the book you posted, can you provide a synopsis of what those chapters have to say?

 

[dennis40x]

Chapter 1-3 Handloading for the Glock: Basically covers reloading the Glock for various shooting disciplines.

Chapter 1-4 The Exploding Glock. Fact or Fiction by Mark Passamaneck, P.E. TY 40422. Subjects: Do Glocks fail when fed lead bullets – An attempted Lawsuit – Pressure barrel tests – Blowing up a Glock 22 – Can't I just watch the primers – Learning the hard way - Case failures, tight bores, and loose chambers – Now the solutions – More lab work on KBS – Words to the wise.

Those two chapters worth the price of the book alone $19.95 purchased in 2006.

 

[handgunner356]

Bruce, I might be adding a little bit to the story, but he did shoot enough in the 10mm Glock to the point of raising pressures. Now was it a problem of bullet set back, unsupported chamber, out-of-battery, overcharged load or combination of all? The barrel was leaded enough I could not see the rifling till the last couple of inches of barrel. I found in my own 24 I could get by about 150 rounds till I was filling in the rifling. I would use a dential pick (and lots of elbow) to clean it out. A few years later and I pick up a 35 and shooting the very same loads I could easily shoot 500rds without hardly any buildup. Now did Glock change their rifling or was it just individual gun properties? Anyway back to the 10mm, he sent it in to Glock and they fixed it with a stern warning not to shoot lead bullets.

 

[jrplourde]

A questionable cartridge

The issue of deeper seated bullets in a 40S&W is not new at all, it's been well written. But the question of a bullet creep of a few mils being a problem suggests that the thing is operating at some ragged edge and the design of the thing needs reevaluation, redesign or abandonment.

Combine that with the Glock barrel with it's higher pressure potential and the unsupported chamber and it sounds like an accident waiting to happen.

Further it has been suggested above, and I have thought about this before, that the Glock bulge is likely to result in a weak spot during resizing (unequal redistribution of the brass) and reloading should be avoided. What is likely to happen if that same weak spot lines up next time around at the same unsupported spot? No mystery here.

The 9mm is a high pressure cartridge, been around for over 100 years and never has it been described as operating at some ragged edge where a few mil makes a difference.

One can blow up any gun with a bad reload but I will never have any need for a 40 cal in my collection. It's a solution looking for a problem and then can become one.

Skip has indicated he has loaded mucho rounds for his many Glocks with no problem. Lord love him but I want no part of it.

Bob

 

[Paul5388]

About a year ago, I posted about my #2 son-in-law blowing the guts out of a Glock M36 (I think that's the model of the .45 ACP he was using). The gun had just over a box of shells run through it when it happened and he wasn't using reloads.

Since he has now eaten the costs of repair, so much for wonderful warranties, he now uses a Colt Lightweight Commander.

The 1911 platform has been around for almost 100 years and the KB incidents have been much fewer than with the new wonder plastic guns. With the 1911 being used in WWI, WWII, Korea and Viet Nam, I would venture to say there has been much more ammunition used in them than any of the plastic guns.

Come to think of it, I don't hear about very many KBs in the M9 or its .40 S&W variant.

 

[Steve C]

Over the years I've seen pictures and read about several Glock 45's having KB's just like their .40 s&w pistols do. Cause is usually reloaded ammo that has ruptured the case in the unsupported area.

You see similar occurances in the 1911's, usually those that have a barrel that was heavily chamfered to improve feeding.

 

[BruceM]

"The barrel was leaded enough I could not see the rifling till the last couple of inches of barrel. I found in my own 24 I could get by about 150 rounds till I was filling in the rifling. I would use a dential pick (and lots of elbow) to clean it out. A few years later and I pick up a 35 and shooting the very same loads I could easily shoot 500rds without hardly any buildup. Now did Glock change their rifling or was it just individual gun properties?"

It seems that leading in the breach end of the bore is caused by undersized bullets which do not seal the bore and therefore suffer from gas blowing by the base of the bullet. Also, the fact that some barrels exhibit this problem and some don't leads me to believe that there is something going on with the manufacturing process of the barrel itself. Possibly the tolerances for the barrels themselves is an issue (dimensional and smoothness). If the bore is tighter at the muzzle than at the breach, this would present a problem with cast bullet loads that wouldn't exist with jacketed ammo. It seems that Double Tap tests their real deal 10mm ammo in Glock pistols and a problem of this nature would not go unnoticed. Also, anyone shooting cast bullets who encounters a severe leading problem at the breach end of the bore (or anywere in the bore for that matter) should start investigating the source of the problem immediately. It's very odd that at one end of the spectrum many Glock owners shoot cast bullet handloads with no issues at all and at the other are the KB's which are frequent enough that Glock sees fit to issue a formal notice prohibiting the use of cast bullets in their guns.

Regarding bullet set back and crimping, I don't feel the solution to that problem is just more crimp or less case mouth belling. If you have to crimp the bullets to the point that they actually exhibit deformation, there is something else going on there IMO. The first place I would start looking is the ID of the resized case and the OD of the expander plug. Just as in reloading magnum revolver cartridges which have healthy doses of slow burning powders, you don't get good combustion by just crimping the bejesus out of the round. You need tight bullet pull which means that the case must be sized sufficiently and the expander must be a few thousands of an inch smaller that the bullet's diameter. The crimp is the last line of defense, not the first. The military used to use a bullet sealer to accomplish this as did some commercial ammo and I still recall factory .38 special and .45 acp target loads with cases which featured a cannelure to prevent bullet setback. Anyway, the purpose of the taper crimp die is to remove case mouth belling and provide a little bit of a snugger fit for the bullet. If you get too much of a taper crimp, it's possible to find yourself in round headspacing on the extractor condition.

Bruce

 

[zeke]

Depending on specific combination of firearm and load being used, bullet setback is a real concern, even with factory ammo. Especially with full power jacketed bullet loads. Using Lee's undersize die in combination with their universal belling die and a Redding competition bullet seater, bullet setback problems can virtually be eliminated. Ya also need to be aware of the brass thickness and dia of bullet being used.

The Lee undersize die can be used to undersize the brass to below the base of the bullet, when the bullet is seated in the brass. This has the same effect of cannuluring the brass.

I once mentioned loading for a .40 High Power on this forum. Skip warned me up front, but tried it anyway. Blew a mag out the bottom, using RP brass and standard brass prep procedures. Since then used up all the rp brass loads in a 646. Then used Fed brass and a Lee undersize die. No problems since, even with the strong spring of the .40 HP.

Now use this procedure for certain 9mm, 45 acp and 40 caliber jacketed loads.

A lee universal belling die does not expand the sized brass back out, past the mouth of the case. A Redding competiton die keeps the bullet straight while seating a bullet in the undersize case. And yes this is significantly more work, which is not usually required for low power lead target loads.

 

[Skip Sackett]

Been done before too!

Zeke,

Hey, having a magazine blown out the bottom of a BHP has been done before, by none other than .....................................................................ME!

I was using Clays, something that will NEVER happen again in a semi-auto round loaded by me, and a 180gr LTC.

.5gr over Hodgdon's maximum load, Lyman's top load, was all it took to have the catastrophe happen.

I know of one other forum member that had the same thing happen to them, BHP, 40S&W, Clays powder.

Again, the whole point of this thread is not to get people to stop loading for these kinds of firearms, but to do it with knowledge.

Fast powders coupled with heavy bullets are an accident waiting to happen, IMO.

I have switched to SR4756, Longshot would be another good choice, with bullets in the 180gr range in the 40S&W.

Lots less pressure, slower peak, faster velocities.

Load with knowledge that will save you some experience.

Think about it!

 

[oldRoger]

I am a brass whore. At the range I pick-up other peoples leavings. Whenever I see a Glock in operation especially a .40, I expect bulged cases in my pick-ups. Obviously it is enough of a problem that RCBS sells a full length sizing die and I think promises one for .45 ACP as well. I expect this is mostly once fired because reloaders tend pick-up their own brass.
Several years ago I had the urge to shoot .45 Super in a 1911, step one said the experts; a fully supported barrel.
Obviously there is a great deal of difference between the pressures in a .40 and .45ACP which may be why my range pick-ups in .45 seldom are a problem.
I am not altogether convinced that resizing the bulged cases is a solution to the problem IF you plan to fire them in an unsupported chamber again. (Confession; I do not own any plastic pistols)

 

[Skip Sackett]

Roger,
A BHP is not a plastic pistol. That fact alone kept little shards of the gun out of my extremities!

I use "Glocked" brass, my own and other's. I have not had any problem with it even getting a slight bulge as long as I use slower powders.

As stated above, I use nickel plated brass, most of that has been fired in Glocks previously.

 

[oldRoger]

I was still in the Glock World with my plastic comment.
I suspect that you are right about the load/powder, certainly my pick-ups are mostly foreign stuff, I suppose bought because of the price. But I think the point that some pistols are at the ragged edge of problems due to tolerances also may be a good one.
Some one at the same range has a .45 which puts a nasty ding in every case, I suspect his timing is way off.
I have no real reason to load .40 S&W, I have only one pistol in it, and that seldom fired, but I save the brass none the less.

 

[dennis40x]

The 40-S&W is a non issue with me. The 9mm-Luger&45ACP are the only center fire cartridges I employ in semiautomatic pistols that are reloaded.

That said the 9mm-Luger is considered to be fully supported in the Glock series 17 & 19 pistols. I've noted no meaningful dimensional difference between fired cases from the Glock pistols mentioned and S&W-MP9 pistols in regards to case expansion.

As for the 45ACP thou not fully supported in the Glock OEM barrel, fired cases from the Glock OEM barrel drop into OEM barrels of S&W, Springfield, and Colt along with BarSto replacement. Also noted the previously mentioned barrels have varying degree of non full support issues also.

It should be noted that I'm not into reloading/fabricating +P or +P+ equivalents in either the 9mm-Luger or 45ACP.

 

[Skip Sackett]

Well noted point!

That said the 9mm-Luger is considered to be fully supported in the Glock series 17 & 19 pistols. I've noted no meaningful dimensional difference between fired cases from the Glock pistols mentioned and S&W-MP9 pistols in regards to case expansion.

It should be noted that I'm not into reloading/fabricating +P or +P+ equivalents in either the 9mm-Luger or 45ACP.

Dennis,
Good points all, especially the later point. Staying away from those rounds that "Go where no man has gone before" is a sure way to stay away from having problems.

Some do and I'm not sure that that is a smart thing in this platform of firearm.

I think we all can agree that the way to keep problems from happening is to keep the pressure down. Usually that means a lack of performance. Not always, and that is the point that needs to be explained as well.

Here is the data from Hodgdon for the 180gr XTP with SR4756

Cartridge: 40 S&W
Load Type: Pistol
Starting Loads

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Maximum Loads

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Bullet Weight (Gr.) Manufacturer Powder Bullet Diam. C.O.L. Grs. Vel. (ft/s) Pressure Grs. Vel. (ft/s) Pressure

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

180 GR. HDY XTP IMR SR 4756 .400" 1.125" 6.1 957 25,200 PSI 6.6 1018 28,800 PSI

Look at the pressure of that bullet to get over 1000fps. Now look at another powder, one much faster.

180 GR. HDY XTP Hodgdon Clays .400" 1.125" 3.0 727 26,000 PSI 3.5 847 34,300 PSI

On some charts Clays is considered faster than Bullseye, how much difference between the numbers on a chart is hard to ascertain, still..............

One can readily see that the pressure is higher for less performance. Now, if it was my firearm, with the knowledge that it had a partially supported chamber, I can tell you which load I would choose.
Note, .5gr of powder changes the pressure by over 8000psi. What happens if you go to 3.9gr? I can tell you, DON'T!

OK, that's the 40S&W. What about the 45ACP? Let's look.
A popular bullet weight for target shooter is the 200gr LSWC, we'll check them out.

200 GR. CAST LSWC IMR SR 4756 .451" 1.225" 7.4 875 13,500 CUP 8.2 966 17,100 CUP

A maximum load gives pretty good velocity.

Now a much faster powder, again, Clays.

200 GR. CAST LSWC Hodgdon Clays .451" 1.225" 3.6 759 11,800 CUP 4.3 888 17,000 CUP

Now the difference in pressure isn't that different. Look at the velocity. What will happen is this, someone will try to eek out that extra 78fps with this powder. What if your powder drop is +/- .1gr? It is possible that bad things are to follow folks, period.

I'm not trying to slam Clays. Like every tool available to us as reloaders, it has it's place. In light revolver rounds, very good.

Good points again Dennis.

 

[VonFatman]

Skip,
Really good and informative post. I have never reloaded .40 S&W (yet, don't even have a gun in that caliber these days).

I do have a G21 and it's completely stock other than the Heinie Slant-8 Nite Sights.

I never felt the need to load hot .45 ACP. I have several other like-caliber semi-autos....H&K Tactical, Springfield 1911-A1 and Sig 220

I prefer nice medium target loads and when my G-21 is "on duty" I load up the factory loads that function just fine.

I agree totally with your logic...keep those "on the edge" loads for the Rugers, Freedom Arms and the like.

Bob

 

[Scrapper]

Very Good info.

 

[SLT223]

Currently circulating on at a least one firearms forum are photographs of a Springfield XD pistol that suffered catastrophic failure also.

Under we don't know what we don't know and won't know. Unless other wise notified the root cause of the catastrophic failure has not yet been determined. In a conversation with a shooting industrial source most failures are related to ammunition irregularities. This doesn't exclude firearm related design and manufacturing issues.

Now why do I think ammunition manufactures say most catastrophic firearms failure are a related to firearms manufacuring irregularities.