Good advice if you’re involved in a shooting.

[OIF2]

hatt, I'm sure you're a great guy I'd be willing to discuss reloads or shooting technique with, but you are misinformed in police investigations. An LAPD Officer goes through the same thing when there is a shooting, except that the DA shows up on scene immediately and oversees the process (to guarantee "impartiality"). Yes, an LAPD Officer who is a League representative is there for the Officer, but only because the Officer is given a Miranda warning immediately, unlike a citizen (the Police Commission considers us suspect until proven otherwise). You need to turn off the TV and listen. As a citizen, if you're not charged with a crime and are not a suspect, you're not given a Miranda warning. Only when you're a suspect in a crime and the police want to interrogate you are you given the Miranda option. In our scenario, you're not free to go, so you have every right to shut up and request a lawyer. Again, your call. I only told folks here what actually happens. So let the insults begin.
Bob

 

[hatt]

Yes, an LAPD Officer who is a League representative is there for the Officer

And there you have it.

 

[cshoff]

hatt, I'm sure you're a great guy I'd be willing to discuss reloads or shooting technique with, but you are misinformed in police investigations. An LAPD Officer goes through the same thing when there is a shooting, except that the DA shows up on scene immediately and oversees the process (to guarantee "impartiality"). Yes, an LAPD Officer who is a League representative is there for the Officer, but only because the Officer is given a Miranda warning immediately, unlike a citizen (the Police Commission considers us suspect until proven otherwise). You need to turn off the TV and listen. As a citizen, if you're not charged with a crime and are not a suspect, you're not given a Miranda warning. Only when you're a suspect in a crime and the police want to interrogate you are you given the Miranda option. In our scenario, you're not free to go, so you have every right to shut up and request a lawyer. Again, your call. I only told folks here what actually happens. So let the insults begin.
Bob

I'm not sure why anyone would insult you for giving your opinion, especially since you didn't attack the opinion of anyone else. I would simply point out that "what actually happens" in your department doesn't necessarily happen exactly the same in every other department around the country.

As an example, I personally know a civilian that was involved in self defense shooting that never even spent one minute at the police station afterwords. Though he did go in, with his attorney by his side, a few days later to make a statement. This happened in St. Louis City, proper.

I also know of an incident that took place here in MO where a Florida man shot an armed attacker in a hotel parking lot. After going through evidence at the scene and speaking with eyewitnesses, the police and prosecuting attorney for the city were satisfied that it was a good shoot and he was given back his gun and allowed to return to Florida the next day. Again, he never spent one minute at the police station. This happened in a municipality in St. Louis County.

When you get right down to it, there are a million ways a person could handle the moments after a lethal force encounter. Most of us would probably be best off to heed the advice of our attorney, whatever that is, rather than that of a LEO or somebody on the internet.

 

[OIF2]

And there you have it.

And your point is? A league rep is not a lawyer and doesn't act in that capacity. A league lawyer is available, though, and is paid for by the Officer's substantial dues. A citizen can ask for a lawyer at any time; again (for the 4th or 5th time), it's your call. Officers do not have the option of "shutting up". Also, again, I only related what actually happens; I'm not here to argue, which apparently you are. For whatever reason, you don't like cops, which is fine with me (I was told in the Academy if I wanted to be loved, join the Fire Dept). Here's a new idea: how about sitting back, listening to someone else relating something you know little about, then commenting on and questioning that person, and maybe learning something? And doing it respectfully, since we're all shooters here, and all have a lot in common? But hey, what do I know?
Bob

 

[OIF2]

I'm not sure why anyone would insult you for giving your opinion, especially since you didn't attack the opinion of anyone else. I would simply point out that "what actually happens" in your department doesn't necessarily happen exactly the same in every other department around the country.

As an example, I personally know a civilian that was involved in self defense shooting that never even spent one minute at the police station afterwords. Though he did go in, with his attorney by his side, a few days later to make a statement. This happened in St. Louis City, proper.

I also know of an incident that took place here in MO where a Florida man shot an armed attacker in a hotel parking lot. After going through evidence at the scene and speaking with eyewitnesses, the police and prosecuting attorney for the city were satisfied that it was a good shoot and he was given back his gun and allowed to return to Florida the next day. Again, he never spent one minute at the police station. This happened in a municipality in St. Louis County.

When you get right down to it, there are a million ways a person could handle the moments after a lethal force encounter. Most of us would probably be best off to heed the advice of our attorney, whatever that is, rather than that of a LEO or somebody on the internet.

You are very right, Sir. I was involved in more than one SD shooting where the victim/shooter was NOT transported to the station for an interview. It all depends on the shooting. I was giving what I've seen happen on some occasions; I'd be here for awhile describing every situation. A lot depends on the part of the country you're in. Some things don't change, though. Cops want answers, and you as a CCW citizen are mandated to cooperate. Whether you think you need to contact an attorney before you cooperate is, again, your call. I only related what happened where I work; some things may be relevant and useful, some not.
My problem with these "discussions" is that, because the person responding to the post doesn't agree or like what's said, insults start flying. I put out, with some thought, what REALLY happens in a shooting, based on my experience, and where I worked. A lot of it carries over to other, big cities. As far as lawyers go, most don't have a clue regarding shootings and proper defense. If I were a CCW citizen (I am now, I'm retired), I'd hook up with an investigator in my city or county and ask about the process. I'd also ask that investigator who is the best criminal defense attorney in the area, with experience in shootings. And I'd talk to him, too. Knowledge is power. See, we probably agree on most everything. If not, I'd still meet you for a range day and a cold one afterwords.
Bob

 

[cshoff]

You are very right, Sir. I was involved in more than one SD shooting where the victim/shooter was NOT transported to the station for an interview. It all depends on the shooting. I was giving what I've seen happen on some occasions; I'd be here for awhile describing every situation. A lot depends on the part of the country you're in. Some things don't change, though. Cops want answers, and you as a CCW citizen are mandated to cooperate. Whether you think you need to contact an attorney before you cooperate is, again, your call. I only related what happened where I work; some things may be relevant and useful, some not.
My problem with these "discussions" is that, because the person responding to the post doesn't agree or like what's said, insults start flying. I put out, with some thought, what REALLY happens in a shooting, based on my experience, and where I worked. A lot of it carries over to other, big cities. As far as lawyers go, most don't have a clue regarding shootings and proper defense. If I were a CCW citizen (I am now, I'm retired), I'd hook up with an investigator in my city or county and ask about the process. I'd also ask that investigator who is the best criminal defense attorney in the area, with experience in shootings. And I'd talk to him, too. Knowledge is power. See, we probably agree on most everything. If not, I'd still meet you for a range day and a cold one afterwords.
Bob

Clearly we agree on more points than we disagree. Besides that, your points are well stated and without the condescension many other LEO's seem to take on this board. I appreciate and respect that.

 

[OIF2]

Clearly we agree on more points than we disagree. Besides that, your points are well stated and without the condescension many other LEO's seem to take on this board. I appreciate and respect that.

Thank you, Sir. These threads can be fun, interesting and sometimes even educational. There is a great deal of experience on this forum, and a few goofballs. Most people here have been "around the block" enough to ferret out the silly stuff. Time to wipe down the new 25-2.
Bob

 

[aryfrosty]

Not really...

And your point is? A league rep is not a lawyer and doesn't act in that capacity. A league lawyer is available, though, and is paid for by the Officer's substantial dues. A citizen can ask for a lawyer at any time; again (for the 4th or 5th time), it's your call. Officers do not have the option of "shutting up".

Perhaps there have been locally different situations.
Officers DO have the option of shutting up. Any citizen does and their rights are not abrogated by their Profession. As for "league lawyers"...I was sued, (eventually I went to depositions and the plaintiff's lawyer dropped the suit there and then.), and the PBA lawyer, after I had paid dues for quite some time, had the balls to tell me he was in an important divorce case and I "might want to get another lawyer". I did, thank God.

 

[langsethnw]

After a shooting

OK boys, ever been involved in a shooting? Well I have and a few words of advice. You are not a killer, you acted in self defense! You will feel remorse but never say, I'm sorry! Never apologize even if you do feel sorry, as its natural to feel that way. People, even cops, say dumb things because they have been involved in a traumatic experience! We are not John Wayne and this is not Hollywood. Do not apologize to the perpetrator, do not apologize to the law enforcement officers. Tell them what happened in as few words as possible. They need something for their report. Call a friend or relative to be with you. Do not ever put anything in writing unless an attorney is present. Always ask if you are being recorded. Never, ever, admit fault, even if it was an accidental shooting. Always cooperate with authorities and give them any evidence they want. It lets them know you have nothing to hide. And lastly, always have an attorney present during questioning during followup investigation or when your taken to a police facility. They may try to rush you but time is on your side. If the officer has ever been involved in a shooting, he will understand. The brass may not but they can pound sand as overtime issues is their problem, not yours:~))

 

[Kanewpadle]

"but you're needlessly pissing off the investigator and not helping yourself"
Are you implying the investigator will then not try to find out the facts of the case and will then be interested in railroading you.

I can see the point in #2, on the scene right when the police arrive. You've lost your mind after that. You get detained/arrested and taken somewhere by the police you're a fool of epic proportions to say anything without quality representation right next to you. I don't care how long you worked at LAPD. You sound like you have S-W Forum in the interrogation room. "Do what we say and we'll make it easy on you, you want to play tough guy..."

Dude, you need a pill. A chill pill.

Just because you don't agree is no reason to speak as you have.

Want our respect? EARN IT!

 

[Rule 303]

Excellent advice lang. I've always believed in the "Davy Crockett" method of dealing with Situations, "Make Sure Your Right, Then Go Ahead". I didn't stay a Holiday Inn Express last night, but I have been involved in a few shootings, Investigated Shooting and been on Officer Shooting Review Boards. Your advice is spot on. But my attitude with the advice here is "do what you thinks right" because even though I hate to see a good person screw up, but that's up to them, not me.

I've seen lots of Agendas in Investigations and Prosecutions.
I've seen officers indicted for obviously clean use of force, because the DA was trying to please a big donor and a racial group in the community. I've seen Investigators look at citizen involved shooting as everybody lies and act accordingly.

lang's advice is good, but do what you think is best.

Me, I retired and having lunch tomarrow with my good friend and shooting buddy was is one of the three attornies that the local Police call to advise their officers when they are involved in a shooting. They don't do a specific interview only a generalized one, with the officer until he has talked with the attorney and has had time to decompress. Its not a big city PD, just a force for a city of 200,000 or so folks.

Me, I'm just joe citizen and I just do what I think is right.
What other do is their decision.

Rule 303

 

[hatt]

Dude, you need a pill. A chill pill.

Just because you don't agree is no reason to speak as you have.

Want our respect? EARN IT!

If I start giving out a bunch of hypocritical advice, will that earn me some respect?

Here, I'll get started.

If you ever find yourself in a criminal investigation. If you're an experienced police investigator, well versed in criminal investigations, please consult your union rep and lawyer and await further instructions from them before answering any questions. However. If you are not familiar with criminal investigations, example, you sell furniture, please cooperate fully with any and everything asked of you. They're just trying to get to the bottom of things. While everything you say can be used against you in court, it probably won't be. If you didn't do anything wrong you have nothing to hide. There's only a small chance someone in the State Attorneys office with have a personal crusade. Failure to cooperate or suggest you might seek counsel or otherwise exercise Rights granted by law will only make you look guilty.

There, I should get some respect now. You want my Facebook page so you can like me?

 

[cmort666]

If this is a poor shooting (not self-defense), you'll be given a Miranda warning (it's a warning, not a right).

That should say, "If they THINK this is a poor shooting (not self-defense), you'll be given a Miranda warning (it's a warning, not a right)."

You have precisely ZERO control over who shows up to investigate your self-defense event.

• They may be competent, level headed, honest and respectful of the law.
• They may be incompetent and blithering idiots.
• They may have an intense hatred of gun owners.
• They may have an intense hatred of [insert your racial, ethnic or religious group here].

Given those possibilities (and too many more to list), your best bet is to give the LEAST information necessary to portray yourself as the victim.

As I said, I can trust somebody like Massad Ayoob, who's been an expert witness for years, or I can trust to luck... and the competence and decency of total strangers with the ability to destroy my life.

 

[Kanewpadle]

If I start giving out a bunch of hypocritical advice, will that earn me some respect?

Here, I'll get started.

If you ever find yourself in a criminal investigation. If you're an experienced police investigator, well versed in criminal investigations, please consult your union rep and lawyer and await further instructions from them before answering any questions. However. If you are not familiar with criminal investigations, example, you sell furniture, please cooperate fully with any and everything asked of you. They're just trying to get to the bottom of things. While everything you say can be used against you in court, it probably won't be. If you didn't do anything wrong you have nothing to hide. There's only a small chance someone in the State Attorneys office with have a personal crusade. Failure to cooperate or suggest you might seek counsel or otherwise exercise Rights granted by law will only make you look guilty.

There, I should get some respect now. You want my Facebook page so you can like me?

This isn't about my point of view or yours.

You can state any facts or conjecture you want. Whether I believe it or not isn't the point.

But when you start insulting people because they have a different view or opinion, you lose all credibility.

 

[Kanewpadle]

Gentlemen, with all the back and forth on this, can we agree that no two self defense shootings will be the same?

How I am treated by responding officers MAY dictate what I say and when I say it.

After all, cops aren't all the same are they?

For example, the Washington State Revised Code clearly states what we can and can't do with firearms. Do you think all cops have read it?

If you answered yes, turn the computer off and get some sleep because you need it.

I had a cop tell me "YOU CAN'T CARRY A 44 MAGNUM!"

And another cop said "You must notify me if your carrying concealed when I pull you over".

They were both wrong.

The general public expected cops to know it all. They don't. They're only human.

So again, I may be inclined to talk. I'm not worried about it because I trust my judgement.

 

[hatt]

This isn't about my point of view or yours.

You can state any facts or conjecture you want. Whether I believe it or not isn't the point.

But when you start insulting people because they have a different view or opinion, you lose all credibility.

I was unaware "you've lost your mind" was such a derogatory phase. I hear that all the time in friendly chatter. Some people are wound too tight.

 

[cmort666]

After all, cops aren't all the same are they?

To borrow a famous film line and a famous TV line and combine them, cops are like a box of chocolates. You never know what you're going to get, whether it's a nice praline or the "spring surprise".

Protect your own interests. Certainly nobody else is likely to do it for you.

 

[NE450No2]

Some things to consider.
First, I was on the Job for over 30 years, I was involved in several shootings.
NO, Police Officer I know talks to anyone with out talking to his Lawer first.
That is one of the first things you are taught, by the people that will represent you in any duty involved shooting.
Think about that.

As a civilian you never know how the local Police on the scene, feel about a civillian shooting even an obvious bad guy.

Also the Miranda warning says, "Everything you say can and will be used against you...
Nothing in the Miranda warning states, "if you give us the truth you will not be prosecuted".

Anything you say that is in your favor,if asked of the Police that questioned you, will be called here say, when/if you are on trial in court...

Say nothing without a talking to your lawer first, say nothing to the Police without your lawer present.

I am sorry to say, that even if you are the GOOD GUY, and you shoot a REALLY BAD GUY, you can trust the Police...

You can trust some of them, but not all of them. Also you cannot trust all of the Grand Juries, or all of the Prosecuters.

Remember I was the Police for over 30 years...

When you ask for an Attorney, and the Police seem pissed off, just tell them, "I know, if you were involved in any shooting, you always talk to your attorney first". GET ME ONE.

If you doubt my advise, talk to a good Criminal Attorney and ask him IF YOU should talk to the Police before calling him...

I assure you NOTHING will be resolved at the scene of the shooting, no matter what you say. Anything you say will not do you any good, and can do you a lot of harm later on.

The only exception to this would be, if the reporting officer was like me, and could tell if you were a good guy, and you shot a bad guy, and then made the report in such a way, that no matter what the detectives thought, no matter what the feelings of the Dept. were, no matter what the thoughts of the District Attornery were, and he went to the Grand jury Personally, and from his testimony, and frankly his relationship with the Grand Jury Prosecutor, there was no way the Grand Jury would return a true Bill of Indictment...
And be willing to fade the Heat from "higher ups" for his actions...

Do not count on that in todays world.

DEMAND A LAWER.

 

[celticfisherman]

For me... I find it entertaining so many advocate shutting up to the cops yet are prolific posters in this forum.

Let's lay this out... You shut up to the cops and that Detective who is paid by the hour but not very much and needs the overtime to pay for his kids braces spends a few good hours with your desktop looking at how much you run your mouth in here on the SD forum... What's he going to come away with here in some cases???

Just saying... Some of this advice as a few of the cops have said is going to come across as dead guilty of murder.

 

[MaximumLawman]

hatt, I'm sure you're a great guy I'd be willing to discuss reloads or shooting technique with, but you are misinformed in police investigations. An LAPD Officer goes through the same thing when there is a shooting, except that the DA shows up on scene immediately and oversees the process (to guarantee "impartiality"). Yes, an LAPD Officer who is a League representative is there for the Officer, but only because the Officer is given a Miranda warning immediately, unlike a citizen (the Police Commission considers us suspect until proven otherwise). You need to turn off the TV and listen. As a citizen, if you're not charged with a crime and are not a suspect, you're not given a Miranda warning. Only when you're a suspect in a crime and the police want to interrogate you are you given the Miranda option. In our scenario, you're not free to go, so you have every right to shut up and request a lawyer. Again, your call. I only told folks here what actually happens. So let the insults begin.
Bob

I believe the reason officers are given Miranda right off the bat is so they can't be compelled to make a statement under Garrity which may be used against them in disciplinary procedures and later admitted into court against them in a criminal trial under certain circumstances. Being read Miranda for a police officer immediately after a shooting whether they are in custody or not or whether they are being interrogated or not is a GOOD thing for them, not a bad thing.

As a citizen, if you're not charged with a crime and are not a suspect, you're not given a Miranda warning.

This is wrong. The requirement for Miranda is custody and interrogation. People who haven't been charged with a crime must be given Miranda if they are not free to go and the police are asking questions beyond routine booking questions if their answers are to be used against them. People who aren't charged with a crime are given the Miranda warning all the time if they're not free to go and they're being questioned and the police intend to use what they said against them. People who HAVE been charged with a crime must also be warned and waive their right to an attorney AND their right to remain silent before a statement is admissible. The "attorney" part attaches automatically after a person is charged.

A citizen can ask for a lawyer at any time; again (for the 4th or 5th time), it's your call. Officers do not have the option of "shutting up".

They sure as hell do. Right after they are given the Miranda warning. You can't compel a cop to give a statement under Garrity if you've already read him his Miranda warning and he invokes his 5th and 6th Amendment rights. You said in L.A. they're given Miranda right from the start, so there you have it.