Hardball!

[truckermike]

I shoot and carry mostly 230 Gr FMJ in my 1911's and 325. For a couple of reasons: first Im cheap and hardball in general is less expensive to handload(besides cast). Second, hardball is what the 45ACP made its reputation on. Chuck Taylor says its claims of overpenatration are false. My buddies say Im a fool and I should use what they do, one of the trick hollowpoints that are popular today.
Then there is the first hand story of a 19 yr old First SGT, who two days before was a Private. Due to 98% attrition in his unit he was all that was left to lead the new replacements on that finger that became known as "Heartbreak Ridge". He fired his 1911 five times and five times a ChiCom dropped to hardball.

That 19yr old was my Dad. So, should I switch ammo or "run what I brung"?

 

[Skip Sackett]

Mike,
God bless your Dad and tell him thanks for me, please.

Here is what I would do, just what I wanted.

I run hardball in everything I shoot. Sometimes I load my own for self defense too.

FWIW

 

[Win]

Just a thought....the ChiComs wern't high on Crack or PCP. I would recommend a double tap with hard ball 45 in a defensive situation these days.

 

[sar4937]

I have been advised several times to carry the same ammo as the police do in my city. It will be easier to defend your choice in court if needed.

 

[Skip Sackett]

It will be easier to defend your choice in court if needed.

The only reason you will be in court because of a shooting is if you use the same kind of logic during the shoot. Like killing a 12 year old with a squirt gun or something.

 

[pinkymingeo]

I figure the police in my city are more likely to shoot themselves than anything else. I wouldn't want to be using the same ammo, and get the blame. Think I'll stick with my handloads.

 

[m1gunner]

Use what you have confidence in.

 

[BUFF]

Well over half of all defensive shootings in the U.S. end up with a civil lawsuit being filed. If you shoot somebody, no matter how righteous the shooting, you need an attorney.

Sad but true.

.45 ball fully penetrates and exits torsos more often than not. A good hollowpoint will lessen but not eliminate the chance of this.

Thanks for your dad's service, but he was using FMJ ammo in Korea because that's all we had then and that's what the military has to use. If your handgun feeds it, a modern hollowpoint will poke a bigger hole in your target, which is likely the reason you picked a .45 over something smaller, anyhow.

I like hollowpoints in .45 ACP. If your pistol feeds them, I see no reason not to use them. Once you find a brand and weight you like, you won't shoot enough of them in gunfights during the rest of your life to have an economic impact. Even if you load fresh every year, that's not a significant burden. Carrying hollowpoints and practicing with FMJ is what most of us do.

 

[OU812]

Originally posted by m1gunner:
Use what you have confidence in.

+1

 

[pinkymingeo]

Buff, where did you come up with the info on defensive shootings and lawsuits? I've been looking for statistics, but haven't been successful.

 

[Skip Sackett]

Originally posted by pinkymingeo:
Buff, where did you come up with the info on defensive shootings and lawsuits? I've been looking for statistics, but haven't been successful.

This is the Internet, everything everybody says is supposed to be taken at face value, just like ALGORE designed it!

 

[Calaveras Slim]

A friend, who was on the P.D. of a local major city, told me that he participated in a study to try and determine what was the most lethal round that has been used.

To make a long story short, he told me the results showed the Winchester STHP as #1 with the Speer GDHP as #2.

I can't verify his statements but it should be noted that he has been a very long time friend and has been totally honest all these years, so I don't doubt what he has related.



After this longwinded reply I need to finish by saying, I carry hardball most of the time in my 1911s and Smith M22

 

[truckermike]

Thanks for all the kind replys. You guys are great.
"WIN" you are correct the ChiComs would execute anyone in the ranks that used drugs.
Just to be sure I called Dad at 4 A.M. this morning (he likes that) and he confirmed what you said. But: the sappers the ChiComs used according to Dad "were loopy on opium". He expalined they used it to dull the pain of blown off limbs-they just kept comming. I asked if the .45 was effective on them: "Boy are you crazy?" "The M1 Garand didnt stop em, you had to cut 'em in half with a BAR or machinegun"
Just for the record I do use hollowpoints in my J frame .38's

 

[BUFF]

Originally posted by pinkymingeo:

"Buff, where did you come up with the info on defensive shootings and lawsuits? I've been looking for statistics, but haven't been successful."

I have seen numbers in print before but can't recall where.

I was the first vice president of my department's F.O.P. lodge when we started one in 1990, and then was long-time lodge secretary. We did some research into the need for legal representation for our deputies in the aftermath of shootings and the numbers were, lawsuits about half of the time, greater if the shooter was law enforcement. We ended up retaining one of the three biggest law firms in the state, who also represented the state highway patrol troopers and officers from the largest city police agency in our state. The numbers given by that firm during our search seemed to confirm what our own research had said.

I was involved in an on-duty shooting in December, 2001 and a squad member was in another one in January, 2002. The same attorney from that firm represented both of us during the administrative and criminal investigations conducted by our department and the District Attorney's office.

The lawyer told both of us to expect a civil lawsuit to be filed, even though both shootings were clearly justified. He said that the single largest determinant of whether or not a civil lawsuit is filed after a shooting is whether the shooter has any assets. Government employees are often sued because their employers are seen to have "deep pockets" and will often settle before trial for lesser amounts to avoid the costs and risks of trial and to make the lawsuit go away. Landlords, property managers and property owners are often sued along with the shooter because there is insurance coverage of the premises where the shooting occurred.

Winning such a lawsuit is problematic if the shooter acted reasonably but anyone in America can sue anyone for anything and there are often lawyers in most cities that are happy to sue shooters, especially cops, to make political hay.

Of the officer-involved shootings locally that I am familiar with, more than half have resulted in civil suits. Only one went to trial, one case is pending and nobody I know collected anything after appeals.

 

[glypnir]

Use what you like, but be prepared to use it well.

Remember what Eric's signature line says.

 

[harry carey]

here is the reason I carry handloads. I have had a round with no flashhole. M29 S&W. it took twenty minutes to unjam the gun. Ray Chapman lost a worlds championship when his factory ammo lacked a flashhole. he had a sponsorship and gave up the free ammo as a result and went back to handloads. does your cartridge have a flashhole? the only way to know that there is powder in the round and that it will fire is to load it yourself! i have seen factory ammo that lacked powder, flashhole, primers that would not fire, etc.i sometimes carry factory and sometimes handloads. i have seen many more guns blown up with factory and commercial reloads than handloads.

 

[Emerson]

Personally, I would not feel disadvantaged if using hardball, and I have carried it many times.

 

[BUFF]

The main advantage of carrying handloads that you assembled yourself is that you KNOW the level of quality control you exercised.

If I was to carry handloads, I would use brass that I had fired once. That way, I know it has no inherrent, included manufacturing flaws, has flash holes, has suitable intended metallurgical properties. It worked once, and if no flaws are visible, it should work again.

I used to carry handloads sometimes, 10, 20 or 30 years ago, because the available factory ammo in some calibers, especially .44 Special, was inadequate, or so I felt. The range of product available now (at least when you can find it on the shelf!) is so much more wide that I see no need to assemble my own for serious use.

I doubt that any of us will persuade anyone else here to change their mind, and the odds of any of us being in a gunfight, and then having the source of our cartridges questioned, is pretty small. If you have shot at least 1,000 rounds you loaded yourself with absolutely NO failure of any kind, and you are comfortable with your quality control, you will probably be fine.

As for myself, I really like Federal's 230 gr. bonded Plus-P in .45 ACP, and W-W's and Federal's 158 gr. LSWC-HP in Plus-P. I will continue to carry that, pretty well 99% of the time, until better comes along.

For those occasions when I have my Bowen .38-44/.45 Colt conversion out, or one of my .44 Specials, either S&W or Colt Single Action, and I need to run to the corner quickie-mart for milk and bread, I won't sweat it that my gun-of-the-moment is full of cast SWC bullets I made and loaded myself.

I'll probably survive unscathed!

 

[Skip Sackett]

I doubt that any of us will persuade anyone else here to change their mind, and the odds of any of us being in a gunfight, and then having the source of our cartridges questioned, is pretty small.

True enough.

I won't sweat it that my gun-of-the-moment is full of cast SWC bullets I made and loaded myself.

I just choose to do it all the time!

 

[Gatofeo]

I spoke to a medical examiner years ago, concerning the typical penetration of .45-caliber 230 gr. Hardball.
He said a solid hit to the torso usually results in the bullet stopping in the person, a few inches under the skin on the backside.
Thus, a bullet entering the chest will typically stop below the skin of the back.
But it must be remembered that bodies differ greatly. The bullet may go through a 120-pound woman, or stop 6 inches into a 480 lb. obese man.
And then there's the question of muscle tone, whether bones or organs are hit, how much clothing the person is wearing (a thick winter coat vs. a T-shirt), etc.
Few soldiers pause to examine enemy corpses for penetration, they're just happy the guy was stopped.
Myself, I feel that 230 gr. Hardball is fine for self defense. A wise-acre attorney can't claim it was designed to be especially lethal, like those horrid hollowpoints or softpoints (which he will call a Dum-Dum to prejudice a jury).
The 9mm FMJ will outpenetrate the .45 FMJ every time. I'd never carry it for defense first-up, but in my own shoulder holster I have one magazine of it for use against barricades and cars.
The need to punch through a car door has become more of an issue these past 20 years, with the proliferation of Road Rage and Drive-By Shootings.
The 230 gr. Hardball has a hard enough time penetrating two layers of car door, especially with the window down as a middle barrier to its penetration. That chunk of glass in the door can be a real bullet stopper for the first couple of shots.
I know. I've shot enough junker cars to know.
On the road, I carry my Browning Hi-Power loaded with 115 gr. hollow points and two magazines, the third mag filled with FMJs.
As for carrying reloeads, I do.
I regard the warning against carrying reloads for self defense as little more than an Urban Legend.
There are warnings all over about it, yet no one seems to be able to point to a single, verifiable court case where the use of factory-type reloads was the sole factor in a conviction against a shooter.
Now, if you make up reloads with mercury-filled bullets, or exploding bullets -- yeah, you're going to pay the piper.
But if you use a bullet that is nothing more than what the factories offer, and your shooting is clearly justified, I just don't see how it can hang you.