Has any one used copper to alloy with

[Shield9 Pro]

I sit down today and experimented with some copper and acid core solder to see if I use tin copper and lead to alloy So I could get a hardness of at least 18 and so far it seems to have worked any ideas suggestion's any and all is appreciated

 

[venomballistics]

it's considered an impurity in lead.
Now, we might be getting into some strange territory where your just on the cusp of making bronze bullets. Be careful here, there awaits a rats nest of stupid legislation that you may be sticking a couple of toes in.

 

[fredj338]

yeah, copper doesn't alloy well with lead. If you want a harder bullet & your lead has some antimony in it, you can water drop them. I can get range scrap to go from 8-9bhn up to 17-18bhn by water dropping.

 

[Doubless]

Here is an excellent article on alloys and the hardening of same. It may be more than you want to read, but it just about covers it all. (And there is something to be said for using magnum shot as an additive, in small amounts. It contains arsenic, which helps the hardness, but one should be VERY careful around arsenic, as we all know.)

Heat treating cast bullets and lead - antimony - arsenic alloys

 

[noylj]

Has the world changed? Back in the '80s, when water dropping picked up popularity, it was noted that sizing returned the alloy at the driving band back to the air-cooled hardness. Has this been disproved?
I can not imagine why any one would want a harder bullet. A BHN of 18-22 is too hard for any use I ever had, including .30-06.
I found that shooting unsized, as-cast bullets was more accurate and produced less/no leading.
Up above 2000 fps, gas checks took care of things.

 

[Alk8944]

One of the Lyman commercial alloys, #4 I believe, contained copper. It served no useful purpose and the alloy was discontinued about 70-80 years ago!

Colloidal copper was used. It gives the alloy a reddish color but serves no other useful purpose. It was not truly alloyed (dissolved) in the alloy, but was merely suspended as free particles due to its' colloidal state.

 

[rwsmith]

The acid core solder.....

Can the acid get into your bullets and your barrel??? What proportions of metals are you using???

 

[Shield9 Pro]

No the acid burns out before it ever go in the pot I used small dish shaped piece of stainless steel to melt in. I used about 4oz of fine copper wire what you would see in speaker wire (braided) I heated that until it reached the point to witch it begins to melt. I then use about 1 to 2oz of acid core solder 60/40 alloy to thin with when this mixture is melted a crust forms on the top I leave the crust and add 4oz of tin to thin the mix a bit more. But like I said it was completely experimental. Also the alloy I added the mix to contained 1% antimony lead tin 50/50. I also tried water quenching and got a hardness of 21 to 22 so it seemed to work for me but I shoot on the high end of the pressure and fps so this may not be for every one. And honestly I didn't notice a change in the color of the alloy just a difference in the structure of the metal when I cut it in half. I also wonder it the acid in the solder produces arsenic so that would also explain the end result.

 

[Nemo288]

If you want an exotic, hard, alloy use silver solder instead.
Oregon Trail claims it alters the crystal structure in a positive manor.
I claim it allows them to advertise in a positive manor.
I would not use acid core. Rosin is less problematic flux.

===
Nemo

 

[Shield9 Pro]

Thanks I will try that I have a ton of rosin flux and silver solder. My wife better lookout here I come for the silver ware! Although I can see where that would get expensive over time let alone the lashing for melting all the silver ware.(LOL)

 

[Krell1]

If you want an exotic, hard, alloy use silver solder instead.
Oregon Trail claims it alters the crystal structure in a positive manor.
I claim it allows them to advertise in a positive manor.
I would not use acid core. Rosin is less problematic flux.

===
Nemo

Using silver can also be very effective when used against vampires and werewolves. In case it doesn't work though, you should have a garlic necklace on just in case.

 

[rwsmith]

Interesting tidbit..

Molybdochalkos is an alloy of copper and lead. It was known by Greek alchemists as early as the 10th century.


PS. I wonder what Babbitt metal with a high lead content would act as a bullet?

 

[mtgianni]

Several threads on the Cast Boolit board deal with shooting copper alloys, both with alloying them in and deriving an alloy from Rotometals Babbit #3. If you are only getting 18 bhn you probably have no copper in your alloy as .003 was giving a bhn in the high 20's.

 

[mtgianni]

Has the world changed? Back in the '80s, when water dropping picked up popularity, it was noted that sizing returned the alloy at the driving band back to the air-cooled hardness. Has this been disproved?
.

For the most part the belief that hardness was only surface skin deep has been disproven. Excessive sizing will remove heat treated hardness but sizing 2-3 thousands will not.
If one uses the old rule of thumb that bhn x 1400= max fps in theory bhn of 20 might give you 2800 fps. Reality tells us that there is a lot more to fit and prep for accurate shooting than the old rules of thumb gave us.

 

[Shield9 Pro]

I have used Babbit and it did really well filled the mold well and seemed to have a good crystal structure. I think what happen was on my first test of the alloy I didn't let any material out of the bottom of my pot so I think and I say think the first one I tested came out around 18 on the scale every one since around 22 to 23 water quenched or not didn't make any difference that I cant explain because I thought quenching would make a difference or it should at least

 

[rwsmith]

High 20s???

Several threads on the Cast Boolit board deal with shooting copper alloys, both with alloying them in and deriving an alloy from Rotometals Babbit #3. If you are only getting 18 bhn you probably have no copper in your alloy as .003 was giving a bhn in the high 20's.

High 20s??? My gosh that's a hard 'boolit'

Does it have any practical use???

 

[mikld]

Has anyone considered the melting temps of copper (1900+ degrees F) vs. lead (629+ degrees F)? Can copper be truly alloyed with lead without high temperature smelting equipment?

 

[gwpercle]

Has the world changed? Back in the '80s, when water dropping picked up popularity, it was noted that sizing returned the alloy at the driving band back to the air-cooled hardness. Has this been disproved?
I can not imagine why any one would want a harder bullet. A BHN of 18-22 is too hard for any use I ever had, including .30-06.
I found that shooting unsized, as-cast bullets was more accurate and produced less/no leading.
Up above 2000 fps, gas checks took care of things.

No ,it hasn't been disproved, if you want to water drop, don't size them....run them through a lube die large enough to just lube them without sizing. A lot of beginners don't understand this, go to the trouble of water dropping, run them hard bullets thru a lube/sizer and are back to air cooled hardness on the driving bands. You have it right, lube them but don't size them.
Gary

 

[Shield9 Pro]

I use an acetylene torch to melt the copper but I am not totally convinced that the copper will alloy with lead with out high tin content in the mix. I can solve the leading with gas checks but in my area they getting hard to find so the point of the whole experiment was to see if I could find another solution with making harder alloy with what I have to work with I have done tin lead and antimony with good results water dropped and loaded which you can do with lees molds. With good results But I have been trying to think outside the box using other metals that would be available. Because lets face the facts lead is getting harder to find so is tin. What are we going to do when we can no longer go to the tire shop and get WWs

 

[rwsmith]

Because lets face the facts lead is getting harder to find so is tin. What are we going to do when we can no longer go to the tire shop and get WWs

I don't even cast and I'm thinking about stocking up on lead in case we are compelled to make our own lead bullets one day.