Has any one used copper to alloy with

[mtgianni]

I don't even cast and I'm thinking about stocking up on lead in case we are compelled to make our own lead bullets one day.

Much the same as stocking up on crude oil without an operating refinery, shooting cast takes a lot of prep and knowledge as to what kind of lead to store. If you shoot any amount over 200 rds a month, casting has made sense since the marketing of jacketed bullets.

 

[Shield9 Pro]

Honestly if you want to stock up on some lead and tin I say go for it if you don't use it I am sure you know some that would. and when you do get some casting equip you are ready to go. I try to keep lead free solder on hand but again that's getting high in price I think I may try to suspend some brass in a mix to see how that turns out. Although I kind of already know

 

[noylj]

Molybdochalkos: lead mixed into copper. The copper solidifies first and the lead globules fill the space between copper grains. This alloy is just like copper, except it is easier to machine (the lead acts as a lube) and the lead causes the machined copper to break apart.

 

[venomballistics]

Has the world changed? Back in the '80s, when water dropping picked up popularity, it was noted that sizing returned the alloy at the driving band back to the air-cooled hardness. Has this been disproved?
I can not imagine why any one would want a harder bullet. A BHN of 18-22 is too hard for any use I ever had, including .30-06.
I found that shooting unsized, as-cast bullets was more accurate and produced less/no leading.
Up above 2000 fps, gas checks took care of things.

well, a few things have changed since powder coating and the HI TEK coating systems started making believers.
Seems to me that on the upper end of the rifle scale, coating quality and alloy hardness start to work in tandem to good result with plain base.
I have 2700 FPS with no leading .. but no accuracy either.
so far, alloy hardness seems to help some. at some point I hope to do some harder batches to see if I can coax this into being a useful load.
If successful, we then have a cheap and easy high performance rifle option on our hands.

 

[venomballistics]

I use an acetylene torch to melt the copper but I am not totally convinced that the copper will alloy with lead with out high tin content in the mix. I can solve the leading with gas checks but in my area they getting hard to find so the point of the whole experiment was to see if I could find another solution with making harder alloy with what I have to work with I have done tin lead and antimony with good results water dropped and loaded which you can do with lees molds. With good results But I have been trying to think outside the box using other metals that would be available. Because lets face the facts lead is getting harder to find so is tin. What are we going to do when we can no longer go to the tire shop and get WWs

You might be a candidate for powder coating.
I'm getting up to 2500 FPS with WW lead plain based.

 

[Shield9 Pro]

The non accuracy could be a result of bullet size design and or hardness. possibly not enough material to grip the lands and groves. But if say the coating was .001 thick and the cast was .001 over giving you a .002 oversize properly sealing the bore the accuracy should improve in theory

 

[venomballistics]

The non accuracy could be a result of bullet size design and or hardness. possibly not enough material to grip the lands and groves. But if say the coating was .001 thick and the cast was .001 over giving you a .002 oversize properly sealing the bore the accuracy should improve in theory

I'm pretty sure its a too soft alloy getting distorted under the force of acceleration.

if it were a case of insufficient material, there would be heavy leading. That is simply not the case. it had ZERO leading, and was actually cleaner than jacketed.

You are correct about the coating adding a little diameter to the mix, which does assist accuracy at lower velocities like 2500.
I just want a few hundred more to help bolster its place in the rifle special collection.

Coating is some astonishing stuff.
You'd do well to try it, as this will help you achieve some of your goals without going through as many alloy hoops.

 

[Shield9 Pro]

Oh believe me I am going to try it for sure and I am all for it. What kind of coating are you using brand how much and how do you go about the application. any help is appreciated and so forth

 

[venomballistics]

Oh believe me I am going to try it for sure and I am all for it. What kind of coating are you using brand how much and how do you go about the application. any help is appreciated and so forth

I use and electrostatic spray gun. The Harbor Freight one has been plenty sufficient.
Coating powders .. The HF stuff has done well up into the 2k+ range, but all powder paints arctic cat green and teflon slip black seem to be the two best I've found so far.

Coating, I give em a good solid dusting from four directions and bake em off in my sleazy bake toaster oven.
pretty simple once you get your setup straightened out.

most who do this refuse to go back to traditional lube.

Since you have that distinct vibe of a tool handy type, you would benefit from having this stuff on hand.
It wont take too long before your using it on more than bullets
http://smith-wessonforum.com/reloading/395096-how-toos-my-skunkworks.html

 

[pawpaw1967]

I use an acetylene torch to melt the copper but I am not totally convinced that the copper will alloy with lead with out high tin content in the mix. I can solve the leading with gas checks but in my area they getting hard to find so the point of the whole experiment was to see if I could find another solution with making harder alloy with what I have to work with I have done tin lead and antimony with good results water dropped and loaded which you can do with lees molds. With good results But I have been trying to think outside the box using other metals that would be available. Because lets face the facts lead is getting harder to find so is tin. What are we going to do when we can no longer go to the tire shop and get WWs

Soooooo

Do these booooletts cause a lead problem ??

 

[pawpaw1967]

 

[pawpaw1967]

lee molds.... WWs from the tire shop, and 4064 Powder 150 grain cast bullet round nose,.......???? oh yea 2740FPS with gas checks.... i call it good nuff, 1977 stevens .308 110 series k

 

[pawpaw1967]

Gas Checks..... u ask???? Yup

 

[Shield9 Pro]

I do just happen to have a powder coater in my shop that I use to coat headers ect so I could defiantly give it a go and see how it turns out. I have had good results with gas checks but the whole reason I started this experiment was every time I go to get checks I cant find them then when I go to order online out of stock or backordered so I began looking for a way that didn't rely or anyone or in this case place. (I know it can be done) with good accuracy just gota find it. No this alloy doesn't have any leading so far just a pain

 

[venomballistics]

Gas Checks..... u ask???? Yup

How much leading?
What kind of accuracy?

I'm running a plain base 150G FP at 2500+ into a single hole out of an 06 using WW and the cheapest powder coat I can find.

Shouldn't take too much to put it right there with yours, without your storage problems or lube plugging up dies.

 

[Shield9 Pro]

Do you resize to accommodate the added layer of the coating.

 

[venomballistics]

Do you resize to accommodate the added layer of the coating.

yes.
post coating, all traditional sizing and lil extra case bell still apply.
you just lose the gobbed up dies, and much of the traditional case lead drama like acceptable rates of leading, contaminated powder due to lube melting, the critical size for the throat thing that cannot always be done, the smoke, powder burn temp, having to put up with flea fart loads when nothing else works ... it's all gone after the full plastic jacket.
the issues do not return until we really start to push the upper fringe. To be honest, I have no idea how far it can be pushed.
I figure coatings coupled to your search for a super alloy should bear some extra fruit

 

[Shield9 Pro]

I think over the weekend I am going to use some of the alloy and give it a go I have some plain black pc industrial grade. I am kinda pumped to see how they shoot

 

[venomballistics]

I think over the weekend I am going to use some of the alloy and give it a go I have some plain black pc industrial grade. I am kinda pumped to see how they shoot

IME, they all worked amazingly well, some better than others but nothing sucked.

Im curious to see if you can break past 2700 with accuracy

 

[Shield9 Pro]

Yea I am looking forward to it I have ben getting set up this evening that way I can run tomorrow I am planning on doing some 357 and 45 auto in a gun vise to see what I get threw the chrono and the accuracy on paper. After this test time to step it up o6 or 308 so lets see what happens