Have you ever had to draw your weapon for self defense?

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Thank you for bringing this up. Mas's point, which you clearly understand, is that these things can be used against you. But more than that because its about perception rather than legal definition. And its not just the perception of a jury, but the responding officers, and then the investigating team.



That's a good approach. Anything can become a weapon the in the right (or wrong) circumstances. The purpose of shooting sports is to develop knowledge, and skills, which are mental and physical, as well as mechanical. I think the best approach is to call a rifle a rifle, a shotgun a shotgun, and a revolver a revolver unless there is some reason to use a broader term.




Your question has provoked an interesting discussion as well as answers. I'm curious if you were aware of, and possibly the reasons you narrowed the defensive uses?

1. Limiting it to something carried on person. (implied by 'draw').
2. Not including threatening animals or varmints.
3. Assuming just one tool might be 'best' for a variety of circumstances.

I appreciate you are a collector. I hope you have the opportunity to shoot some of your collection because I think you'll come to further appreciate the differences in designs and assembly etc. And therefore why one might have several revolvers even if they were not a collector.
Side note: When I write 'shoot' I mean at an appropriately sized target. An NRA B-8 target is a good one for 25 yards and closer. Although for under 10 yards a smaller bullseye (such as those used for the NRA Basic Pistol qualification) is arguably a better choice.

Oh yes. Just targets at the range but I get it.

Mostly I was interested in this from a human defense from a human kind of perspective. Carrying around in public as opposed to being out in the mountains hiking or camping with the threat of bears or mountain lions etc.
 
Have you seen any videos starring Daniel Shaver?

You can watch the body cam video on YouTube, and find it via Wikipedia. Shaver does not comply with the officer’s commands.

Shaver denied being drunk when asked. If he’d been honest and responded that, yes, he was drunk, perhaps the involved officers would have understood why he repeatedly failed to comply with commands. But Shaver did reach for his waistband in contradiction of commands.
 
About 35 years ago, while i was driving my car with my wife and my elder son 1 years old at thet time.
I had turn the corner with my car, the turn light of the car didn't work, three bikers, abot 40 years old each, were behind me.
Since I had turned without signalling they decided to punish me, they passed the car and blocked it, they got out and rushed to my door to pull me out of the car and beat me up. I was carrying a 29 6.5" IWB, I pull out showing them the wrong side, the muzzle and the bullets well visible in the cylinder.
I was sh***ing myself while my wife was screaming like crazy. I have understud in few second that a normal peolple not be able to shot and kill someone easily, while a criminal wouldn't have thought twice to kill you and go on as nothing happens.
Three riders at the sight of the gun they stopped, but the impressive thing was that their expressions did not change, while I was livid with fear. Telling me that I was been lucky this time.
 
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Really easy for me.



The criminal doesn’t listen to police officer commands, doesn’t reveal his hands, continues to reach for, search for and grab something in his pocket, and draws it out.



The police officer was - and should have been - in fear of losing his life. It is unreasonable to require the police officer to wait to verify with certainty what the criminal is drawing is or isn’t a gun or other weapon. Waiting to verify with certainly is waiting to be shot.



Prosecuting the officer in this or similar cases teaches the criminals they do not have to listen to police commands even after they’ve been caught.



It also teaches police officers or potential future officers that the State’s Attorney (Commonwealth Attorney in VA) will prosecute them despite a very reasonable fear of losing their life, and so seriously discourages retention and recruitment and discourages officers from doing their jobs as well.



Wonder why crime has skyrocketed?

Apparently the laws where this happened say it is absolutely reasonable for a cop to verify with certainty, why they are shooting.

Should the criminal have listened to the cop, in most cases yes.

Yes, the cop should be prosecuted for shooting and killing an unarmed criminals, I'm shocked to even have to type that.

Should the criminal be in jail with a stack of charges (theft, fleeing, obstruction), yes.

But death for scaring a cop, I'm sorry but that is what is disgusting.

Folks giving carte Blanche to the police is exactly why we have the hate for the police today.

As to crime being high, might want to check the numbers. I'm in Wayne county Michigan, the same county as Detroit.

In 2023 Detroit had the least amount of violent crimes in 57 years.

Here are some national stats from 2023 from the FBI.

Just a moment...


Notice the word DECREASE over and over.

Care to guess why thus is happening?
 
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Twice. In 1969 driving from Ft. Walter’s, TX to Hunter Army Airfield, Savanah , GA. Stopped at traffic light at night somewhere in Louisiana and a large man put his fingers on the driver window (open an inch) and started forcing it down. Several others around the car. Wife and kids in car. Placed barrel of a Model 10 on window next to his hand and the situation was resolved. Other time was Pennsylvania and involved two thief’s at night at my parents home. Time frame early 1970s. One pulled a large Bowie knife to threaten me and I pulled a Model 19 with 2.5” barrel.Kid dropped knife and I drove him home. Kid was 15 and his 22 year old brother was using him - if detected while stealing, brother ran cross country and the kid ran down the road. Well, at his home, the brother called the police and accused me of threatening them with the pistol. State Police responded. I went to school with the Trooper - older brother got arrested. Fun night.
 
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You can watch the body cam video on YouTube, and find it via Wikipedia. Shaver does not comply with the officer’s commands.

Shaver denied being drunk when asked. If he’d been honest and responded that, yes, he was drunk, perhaps the involved officers would have understood why he repeatedly failed to comply with commands. But Shaver did reach for his waistband in contradiction of commands.

All you say is true.
He was most likely trying to pull up his loosely fitting shorts after attempting to complete the DUI test from the "Man With Two Brains." He definitely wasn't a yoga instructor.
If you feel like, after watching that video, it was a justified shoot (not legal- there's a difference), you win the discussion.
 
Apparently the laws where this happened say it is absolutely reasonable for a cop to verify with certainty, why they are shooting.

Should the criminal have listened to the cop, in most cases yes.

Yes, the cop should be prosecuted for shooting and killing an unarmed criminals, I'm shocked to even have to type that.

Should the criminal be in jail with a stack of charges (theft, fleeing, obstruction), yes.

But death for scaring a cop, I'm sorry but that is what is disgusting.

Folks giving carte Blanche to the police is exactly why we have the hate for the police today.

As to crime being high, might want to check the numbers. I'm in Wayne county Michigan, the same county as Detroit.

In 2023 Detroit had the least amount of violent crimes in 57 years.

Here are some national stats from 2023 from the FBI.

Just a moment...


Notice the word DECREASE over and over.

Care to guess why thus is happening?

The “DECREASE” is the result of two very significant circumstances, the first being the reduced reporting of crime because of both the inability of police to respond and the unwillingness of leftist prosecutors to prosecute, and the second the redefining of what constitutes a reportable crime.

In Fairfax County, and all of Virginia, the standard for the use of deadly force is that the shooter have a reasonable fear of imminent serious bodily injury or death.

Don’t you agree that a criminal reaching into his pocket and drawing something from his pocket while failing to heed police commands gives rise to the officer’s reasonable fear of imminent serious bodily injury or death?

Fwiw, “reasonable fear” is a standard that can be summed up as “others in the shooter’s situation would have had that fear.”
 
All you say is true.
He was most likely trying to pull up his loosely fitting shorts after attempting to complete the DUI test from the "Man With Two Brains." He definitely wasn't a yoga instructor.
If you feel like, after watching that video, it was a justified shoot (not legal- there's a difference), you win the discussion.

Legal yes, justified under the law, yes.

Would I have pulled the trigger? I’m not sure, I am not under the stress or facing the fear the officer was.

More significantly, the video doesn’t support your assertion that police shoot people who are following commands.
 
The “DECREASE” is the result of two very significant circumstances, the first being the reduced reporting of crime because of both the inability of police to respond and the unwillingness of leftist prosecutors to prosecute, and the second the redefining of what constitutes a reportable crime.



In Fairfax County, and all of Virginia, the standard for the use of deadly force is that the shooter have a reasonable fear of imminent serious bodily injury or death.



Don’t you agree that a criminal reaching into his pocket and drawing something from his pocket while failing to heed police commands gives rise to the officer’s reasonable fear of imminent serious bodily injury or death?



Fwiw, “reasonable fear” is a standard that can be summed up as “others in the shooter’s situation would have had that fear.”
Where I'm at it isn't under reporting its less bodies in the morgue.

The reason for that is now that cops are getting in trouble for illegal actions, folks are starting to work with them by calling them to report crimes.
If someone digging in their (I'm not sure of location they were digging) causes enough fear to shoot, that person should be a plumber or carpenter, NOT a cop.

Michigan has the same three qualifications for shooting as your location does. I guarantee however a criminal reaching for a "not a weapon" will get you jail time if you kill that person.

At this point I'm done with this discussion with you as it seems neither of us are going to change their mind.
 
A lot of passion on this subject.
No question being a cop has its share of danger. Statistically there are more dangerous jobs, I've done some of them.
Most LE are professional, and I have great respect for them.
Fact is whatever jobs you guys have done there have been bad actors. Whenever someone denies a profession has incompetent and corrupt members and departments, I know they are lying.
 
Where I'm at it isn't under reporting its less bodies in the morgue.

The reason for that is now that cops are getting in trouble for illegal actions, folks are starting to work with them by calling them to report crimes.
If someone digging in their (I'm not sure of location they were digging) causes enough fear to shoot, that person should be a plumber or carpenter, NOT a cop.

Michigan has the same three qualifications for shooting as your location does. I guarantee however a criminal reaching for a "not a weapon" will get you jail time if you kill that person.

At this point I'm done with this discussion with you as it seems neither of us are going to change their mind.

Just put yourself in that officer’s shoes… if a fleeing criminal defies lawful police orders and instead reaches into his pocket to search for and ultimately draw an object, would you not fear for your life?

Voting not guilty here, and I believe the Fairfax County Jury will do the same, despite the leftist CA’s efforts.
 
Just put yourself in that officer’s shoes… if a fleeing criminal defies lawful police orders and instead reaches into his pocket to search for and ultimately draw an object, would you not fear for your life?

Voting not guilty here, and I believe the Fairfax County Jury will do the same, despite the leftist CA’s efforts.

Despite your willingness to argue with a wall, arguing serves little purpose in almost all cases. You cannot put yourself in that officer's shoes anymore than you can step in the same stream twice. Do you have extensive law enforcement background or do you just read a lot on the Internet? Big diiference.
 
You can watch the body cam video on YouTube, and find it via Wikipedia. Shaver does not comply with the officer’s commands.

Shaver denied being drunk when asked. If he’d been honest and responded that, yes, he was drunk, perhaps the involved officers would have understood why he repeatedly failed to comply with commands. But Shaver did reach for his waistband in contradiction of commands.

Exactly my point...

If he hadn't resisted, and behaved in a threatening manner he'd still be alive...
 
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I've taken a grip on my pocket carry several times in questionable situations with two legged creatures, but I have drawn only once. Was out for a walk in the neighborhood, and I decided to cut down an alley for some reason. I usually don't walk in alleys, but it's a relatively safe neighborhood, so I wasn't worried. Unfortunately somebody's rather large dog was out, and he didn't like me walking down his alley. Barking and growling grew more intense, so the gun came out. Fortunately I did not have to fire. I would hate to have to tell a family I killed their dog in self defense.
 
I meant to share an incident that occurred last year with fellow forum members. First, I will discount my 25 year law enforcement career with a large metro in California since that would be impossible to count.

During the summer of 2023, we had just moved to our 20 acre property in south central Oklahoma, about 45 min southwest of Oklahoma City. I had been retired from my law enforcement career for 6 years. I would describe our area as being located in a small valley, with some nice rolling contour of red cedar, scrub oaks and grassland. The neighboring properties were other cattle and horse ranches ranging from 10 acres to hundreds of acres. An apt description would be tranquil, peaceful and quiet.

My wife had wanted some raised garden beds made, so we hired a nice local named Ronnie to build the raised beds. Our home has a rather long driveway, approximately 350 yards from the not very busy county road where we have an electric wrought iron gate and the entire 20 acres is fenced. The home is not visible from the long winding gravel driveway.

We had several contractors over during this period for painting, adding a tankless water heater and other stuff. I gave them our gate code including Ronnie so they could access our property and do their work. The gate has about a 40 second delay before closing again, this will become important later.

On the morning of the incident. The wife is inside the house and I’m out back with our dogs, we have about 3/4 of an acre fenced behind the house. I watch my neighbor, Frank, fly over in his para motor and a wave at him. Then I see Ronnie drive up to start work on the wife’s raised garden beds. Then I see Ronnie again in his truck driving off, he stopped and said, “I’ll get him!” Then rapidly drove away. It didn’t quite register, is he talking about my neighbor Frank who just flew over in his para motor?

I walked into the house and comment to the wife that Ronnie sure was acting weird when I see Ronnie drive back up and come up to the house with a worried look. I went outside, and Ronnie blurted out, “Some guy in a white 1500 Ram followed me through your gate, I thought he was maybe another contractor until I saw him driving into some trees and smashing his truck up! Then he started doing donuts and crashed into some more trees on your property! I think he’s high on meth!

I asked Ronnie where the suspect was now and he said, “somewhere on your property!”

I went and grabbed my holstered, fully loaded Glock 19, and strapped it to my belt, instructed my wife to call 911, then stepped outside. I start walking down the driveway and immediately I see the white Ram come barreling up the driveway, kicking up gravel and I immediately draw my Glock 19 as he comes barreling towards me.

In just a few seconds after having stepped outside, I am now aiming center mass at the suspect’s chest through the windshield, I feel my life is in danger as the truck is coming towards me approximately 15 yards away, my finger makes contact with the trigger as I’m a less than a second away from attempting to neutralize him!

Then the suspect abruptly stops! His eyes get extremely wide! Even in his meth induced haze, he must realize he’s looking at death! He starts to rapidly back the truck up. I’m processing this, he’s no longer an immediate threat as I lose sight of him. Then Ronnie drives up, I jump in Ronnie’s truck and say, “Come on Ronnie, follow him!” I wanted to get a photo of his license plate and call it in to the sheriff’s department.

We catch up to the suspect, and surprisingly he’s driving rather slowly, almost casually back out our driveway. He even patiently waits for the gate to open then turns onto the county road as I’m able to get several photos of the truck and license plate. We continue to follow as I assess.

Well, as far as I know it’s just trespassing, maybe vandalism to the trees, no need to get into a high speed pursuit with a civilian and well I’m a civilian now too! So I tell Ronnie to disengage and return us home while I update the sheriff’s department with the truck’s license plate number and last known direction and location.

A couple hours later, sheriff’s deputies come to the house to take my report and they give me an update. They told me the suspect just stole the truck this morning from an automotive shop in another town, and were uncertain why he followed Ronnie through the gate but surmised maybe he was looking to steal another vehicle?

Anyways, they located him shortly after we called it in and the suspect ended up ramming a deputies patrol car and deputies fired on him. The suspect was not hit however. They were subsequently able to take him into custody ending this crazy little escapade!

From my perspective, it felt like being back at work, whereupon you can go from calm and inactive one moment to an instant life and death situation in another! The reason I wanted to bring this situation up to my fellow forum members, even as unlikely as it may be seem, any of us could find ourselves in a lethal force situation in the most unlikely area so it does pay to be prepared!

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Where I'm at it isn't under reporting its less bodies in the morgue.

The reason for that is now that cops are getting in trouble for illegal actions, folks are starting to work with them by calling them to report crimes.
If someone digging in their (I'm not sure of location they were digging) causes enough fear to shoot, that person should be a plumber or carpenter, NOT a cop.

Michigan has the same three qualifications for shooting as your location does. I guarantee however a criminal reaching for a "not a weapon" will get you jail time if you kill that person.

At this point I'm done with this discussion with you as it seems neither of us are going to change their mind.

crime down I say NOT.
less people in the morgue, if they take you to a trauma center with a pulse and breathing you have a good chance of surviving, every year survival rates go up making murder rates go down.
The Collapse in Law Enforcement: As Arrest Rates Plummet, People Have Been Less Willing to Report Crime
 
There have been several times that I've had something or someone raise the threat level to a point that the next step was to draw, but only once did the gun actually clear leather. I was taking my very young family to the mouse house in California and learned about "exit only" lanes the hard way. My first wife and I were in our 20's and we had a 1 year old and a 2 year old in car seats in the back of a brown Caprice station wagon....and we ended up in Compton. The first two stop lights felt like a scene from a zombie movie: as soon as the car stopped a crowd of people would start walking towards the car and gather around it. To say that we didn't belong there would be quite an understatement. The only handgun I owned at the time was a 6" Model 28-2. I pulled it out from under the seat and placed it in plain view in the middle of that big flat dashboard. Amazingly, the crowds were no longer interested in us.

A few blocks later I flagged down a cop who obviously was used to tourists ending up in the wrong place. He saw the revolver but didn't comment on it. He told us how to get back onto the highway and directed me to run every red light and every stop sign until I got there.

Reading other people's stories and the predictable thread drift into interactions with police make me realize how fortunate I am to have lived my entire life in a place where guns and armed citizens are entirely normal. My interactions with law enforcement while I've been armed have always been friendly and cordial, even when I was the subject of a felony stop.

That story: My wife's truck was stolen and later recovered in a different town. I repaired the damage after the recovery and life went back to normal until one Sunday morning I was driving along and got swarmed by cop cars. It was a full felony stop: guns drawn, hands out the window, exit slowly and back towards my voice, etc.

They had me stop when I was about even with the rear tires of the truck and one officer came forward to search me. He began by having my put my hands on my head (facing away from him), put one of his hands on mine for control, and asked if I had any weapons on my person so I gave him the list: Kimber 1911 under my shirt on the right hip, spare magazine under my shirt on the left hip, knife in my left front pocket. That made him pause for a second and he asked if there were any other weapons in the truck. I actually laughed at that question and simply told him "Look at it."

I was on my way to the range to teach a class as a volunteer instructor for our Game and Fish Department. The back of the truck contained SIX double shotgun cases with big department logo stickers on them, about a dozen cases of shotgun ammo, along with the usual instructor ephemera. The officer didn't say anything except "walk backwards" and guided me all the way back to the first patrol car.

My batman belt was emptied and I heard the 1911 being cleared before everything was laid out on the hood of the car. My wallet is arranged so that when it is opened the CCW permit and drivers license are both visible, and my state issued "good guy card" is behind my license. (If you have one of those you know what it is....think of the level of background check required to use state owned and issued firearms while working with children and vulnerable adults :rolleyes:) This made everyone pause for a moment and I was told to "Just stand there" while they figured out what was going on.

A few minutes later the officer who was doing the computer check said a word that the forum will not allow and told everyone (including me) that we could relax. The issue was that the stolen vehicle report had been created in one town, the recovery occurred in a different town, and the original report had never been closed. According to their system I had technically been driving a stolen vehicle.

Once it was clear what had happened, most of the officers left, I was allowed to recover all my stuff, and while we waited for someone to close the initial report we had a very nice conversation on the side of the road about how the officers thought that my equipment was better than what they had. :D

That was quite a few years ago and I still get teased by the other coaches about leaving extra time in my schedule for the police.
 
There have been several times that I've had something or someone raise the threat level to a point that the next step was to draw, but only once did the gun actually clear leather. I was taking my very young family to the mouse house in California and learned about "exit only" lanes the hard way. My first wife and I were in our 20's and we had a 1 year old and a 2 year old in car seats in the back of a brown Caprice station wagon....and we ended up in Compton. The first two stop lights felt like a scene from a zombie movie: as soon as the car stopped a crowd of people would start walking towards the car and gather around it. To say that we didn't belong there would be quite an understatement. The only handgun I owned at the time was a 6" Model 28-2. I pulled it out from under the seat and placed it in plain view in the middle of that big flat dashboard. Amazingly, the crowds were no longer interested in us.

A few blocks later I flagged down a cop who obviously was used to tourists ending up in the wrong place. He saw the revolver but didn't comment on it. He told us how to get back onto the highway and directed me to run every red light and every stop sign until I got there.

Reading other people's stories and the predictable thread drift into interactions with police make me realize how fortunate I am to have lived my entire life in a place where guns and armed citizens are entirely normal. My interactions with law enforcement while I've been armed have always been friendly and cordial, even when I was the subject of a felony stop.

That story: My wife's truck was stolen and later recovered in a different town. I repaired the damage after the recovery and life went back to normal until one Sunday morning I was driving along and got swarmed by cop cars. It was a full felony stop: guns drawn, hands out the window, exit slowly and back towards my voice, etc.

They had me stop when I was about even with the rear tires of the truck and one officer came forward to search me. He began by having my put my hands on my head (facing away from him), put one of his hands on mine for control, and asked if I had any weapons on my person so I gave him the list: Kimber 1911 under my shirt on the right hip, spare magazine under my shirt on the left hip, knife in my left front pocket. That made him pause for a second and he asked if there were any other weapons in the truck. I actually laughed at that question and simply told him "Look at it."

I was on my way to the range to teach a class as a volunteer instructor for our Game and Fish Department. The back of the truck contained SIX double shotgun cases with big department logo stickers on them, about a dozen cases of shotgun ammo, along with the usual instructor ephemera. The officer didn't say anything except "walk backwards" and guided me all the way back to the first patrol car.

My batman belt was emptied and I heard the 1911 being cleared before everything was laid out on the hood of the car. My wallet is arranged so that when it is opened the CCW permit and drivers license are both visible, and my state issued "good guy card" is behind my license. (If you have one of those you know what it is....think of the level of background check required to use state owned and issued firearms while working with children and vulnerable adults :rolleyes:) This made everyone pause for a moment and I was told to "Just stand there" while they figured out what was going on.

A few minutes later the officer who was doing the computer check said a word that the forum will not allow and told everyone (including me) that we could relax. The issue was that the stolen vehicle report had been created in one town, the recovery occurred in a different town, and the original report had never been closed. According to their system I had technically been driving a stolen vehicle.

Once it was clear what had happened, most of the officers left, I was allowed to recover all my stuff, and while we waited for someone to close the initial report we had a very nice conversation on the side of the road about how the officers thought that my equipment was better than what they had. :D

That was quite a few years ago and I still get teased by the other coaches about leaving extra time in my schedule for the police.

I was stationed in Seal Beach and had the Marine Barracks Security. We had 22 different law enforcement agencies, plus Navy Reserve Units out of Long Beach that used our ranges. Our Daughter was on the swim team there. Have been to Compton several times for meets. Always took a gun, was lucky as I did not have a CCW, but all the cops around knew me, so was good to go.
 
For all of you belittling the officers for drawing and firing when the individual refuses to comply and reaches for something the officer can not see. I suggest you put yourself in their shoes. They do not have X-Ray vision and cannot see behind the individual or into their pockets. When the officer sees them make a drawing motion and glimpses something in their hand all he has is time to react. When I was stationed in Pittsburgh the Reserve MP Co. had a FATS (Fire Arm Training Simulator) that we could run different scenarios on for both rifle and pistol. One was you were given a situation and a suspect. the scenario started with a young man walking down a train track in the area described in the situation. The student (MP/Police Officer) was giving commands to the suspect. The suspect failed to halt and reached behind himself and made a motion as if he was drawing something. As his arm would start to clear his body you could see something in his hand. About that time probably 90%+ would draw and fire at him. when his hand was fully in front of him it was a wallet in his hand and when he opened it there were two cards facing you reading "I am Deaf and Dumb". Not every Police Department can afford a FATS. This was in 1992 and the cost of the machine was $70,000+ with all the enhancements we had on it. The City of Pittsburgh, PA. did not own one and would request to use ours from time to time. I am not saying the police are always right, but it is not always their faults, the individuals need to take some of the responsibility themselves. Put yourself in the officers position.
 
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I figured combat situations and bear attacks would be one thing, but carrying in public places. Downtown or indeed suburbia or wherever was what I mostly wanted to know for people who carry when they’re just going to the cinema or restaurant.

I’m getting into the Kuhnhausen book now. I’m wanting to fix up a beater!
For me, I love the item, but not its ultimate intended purpose.
I guess no one loves that though.
To me it’s the negative sell when I see ads for weapons. Guys talking about self defense etc.
That not what appeals to me.
I’m sold on the engineering and aesthetic. The Finishes. The History.
The target shooting is the cherry on top but the pie is the collection.
I guess no one loves that though.
I think you are wrong on that part. I think those are precisely the things that drive the collector's market.



As far as ads go, for various reasons I rarely see ads for firearms, nevermind revolvers. I know there is at least some truth in what you write, but don't let that marketing translate into the only reason for these things existing. Certainly some revolvers have been specificly designed for various personal defense situations, but others have been specificly designed for hunting, bullseye shooting, steel, etc. Some people (I think a lot of people) find it fun to make things go bang and/or hit something at a distance. Ever see a kid pick up a small stone or stick and throw it?

Can revolvers be used as reasonable effective personal defense weapons? Yes. And if you own one (or more) it would not hurt to be familiar with that type of use, when it may be appropriate, and when it may be unwise. But I don't think that has to be the reason a person owns one, or collects them.

Sidenote: Interesting you mention combat. I would argue that in most situations pistols in general are a last resort. At least in the past, most infantry and cavalry carried rifles, or at least carbines. Special Units like the GIGI perhaps being the exception.
 
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