Head Scratchin' 9mm Revolver Load Issue

[Thomas15]

One other thing and this is may not have anything to do with your problem. The posters at the enos website are basically serious competition shooters. I'm not serious but I dabble with it. You will quickly find out that many complain that out of the box there are issues with theses guns. For example the 929 is a PC item but quite a few of them have to be fine tuned for optimal performance. My 929 had a 14.5 pound trigger out of the box.

Before I put a single round through it I took it to a revolver guy that did quite a bit of work on it. Mine had no end shake, BC gap was ok, crane machining was fine. But still I had action work, the forcing cone cut, the cyl trued, ball detent added to the crane for the open position, the charge holes chamfered, FI front sights added, hammer bobbed. Point I'm trying to make is not all of them are perfect when new.

 

[ArchAngelCD]

Both bullets do NOT have a crimp groove, so I can only use a taper crimp. I did not try another forum. One at a time....

That's what I was trying to say when I mentioned bullets for a semi-auto were different. Unfortunately you don't have the crimp groove for help. When I was loading for a 45 Auto revolver I tried hard for good neck tension and I slide use a roll crimp die to help prevent bullet pull. It did work but use only a little bit of roll crimp not to damage the bullet.

I asked about another forum because there was a similar post elsewhere but when I looked again it was not the same. (don't get old lol)

 

[BLUEDOT37]

What I mean is why when shooting the lead bullet does the case NOT expand enough to keep it from backing out. Whereas the plated bullet allows the case to stay in place by the case expanding properly to grip the inside of the chamber.

What do the primers look like on the cast lead loads when they jam up the revolver? Normal, flat or pushed out?

When you test fire a PRIMER ONLY round in a revolver it frequently jams up the revolver (which is why I do them individually) because the primer backs out of the pocket. Because it had no case pressure (no powder) to force the case back against the blast shield, and push the primer back in the pocket (which is why primers have the shield's imprint in them), it jams up the cylinder.

.

 

[Cobbler]

One other thing and this is may not have anything to do with your problem. The posters at the enos website are basically serious competition shooters. I'm not serious but I dabble with it. You will quickly find out that many complain that out of the box there are issues with theses guns. For example the 929 is a PC item but quite a few of them have to be fine tuned for optimal performance. My 929 had a 14.5 pound trigger out of the box.

Before I put a single round through it I took it to a revolver guy that did quite a bit of work on it. Mine had no end shake, BC gap was ok, crane machining was fine. But still I had action work, the forcing cone cut, the cyl trued, ball detent added to the crane for the open position, the charge holes chamfered, FI front sights added, hammer bobbed. Point I'm trying to make is not all of them are perfect when new.

OMG don't I know that!! This revolver just came back from its second visit to S&W for excessive barrel cant. And for some reason, the first time it went back, when it came back to me they had replaced the cylinder. I have no idea why and neither did the rep from S&W when I talked to him, so that's a mystery. My 625 PC went back for several fit & finish issues, my 686 Talo went back for multiple issues including metal chips and and burrs throughout the cylinder/extractor. The only new revolver I purchased that did NOT have to go back is my 627 Pro Series.

 

[Cobbler]

What do the primers look like on the cast lead loads when they jam up the revolver? Normal, flat or pushed out?

When you test fire a PRIMER ONLY round in a revolver it frequently jams up the revolver (which is why I do them individually) because the primer backs out of the pocket. Because it had no case pressure (no powder) to force the case back against the blast shield, and push the primer back in the pocket (which is why primers have the shield's imprint in them), it jams up the cylinder.

.

They were normal. I'm familiar with the primers jamming the cylinder when fired with no bullet, I do that checking trigger pull weight for the primer I'm using. The case is pushing back just enough to jam against the frame. I tapped a few back into the moon clip/cylinder very lightly and it moved forward and freed the cylinder, so it seems to not take much rearward movement to jam.

 

[Cobbler]

Makes two of us!
The only thing I understand here is about the taper crimp.The way I've been explained to do it is measure the diam of bullet(here .356)+ measure the thickness of brassXby 2 and add up.In this case if the brass is .005 thick at the mouth,that would give a crimped total of .366''.
This for the bullet staying in the case under recoil.But overpressure is totally another problem...exept if I'm missing a beat here.
Qc

I have always gone by bullet diameter + case thickness X 2 - .003". So .356" + .020" (.010x2) -.003" = .373" taper crimp. Mine are at .374".

 

[S&W1006]

Cobbler is talking about case set back binding the cylinder not bullets jumping crimp. We had discussed this issue before he posted it and I find it very confusing as well.
I have a 627 38 super that has been reamed to shoot 9x23 or 9x19. I shoot mostly 9mm with lead bullets and I have never experienced this problem with any load. My cylinder is steel so it could be the titanium cylinder of the 986.

Sent from my SAMSUNG-SM-G870A using Tapatalk

 

[scooter123]

Spitballing here, so consider these as suggestions only NOT something I've actually attempted.

First, the taper of the 9mm parabellum is rather distinct. Per SAAMI the case specs at 0.380 at the case mouth and 0.391 at the base (tolerance is +0.000/-0.007). This specified taper is something that I would only expect to see in factory new ammunition and it might not be present in cheaper range ammo such as WWB. Because in order to taper the entire length of the 9mm case you would need a carbide insert that is at least as long as the full length of the case or even a bit longer. That full length carbide won't come cheap and any rifle reloader will tell you that you'll need to use case lube for any full length resizing setup. Point is I don't believe you'll find an RCBS sizing die that actually produces a full length taper, for that you'll probably have to go to Dillon or Redding and be willing to pay more than about 150 dollars for the die.

However, in measuring the results from my Lee Sizing/decapping die they do appear encouraging. Down at the base where SAAMI calls out a tolerance of 0.384/0.391 I am measuring 0.388 inch. At midpoint I am measuring 0.380 inch, which is within the SAAMI specification if you average the large and small diameters called out and subtract about 1/2 the general tolerance. Finally for the last 3/16 inch or so the case measures at 0.372 inch, well blow what SAAMI calls out but this area gets resized during the flaring operation and when the bullet is pressed in. Next step is flaring, which sets the neck tension and flares the end of the case. Ignoring the diameter at the flare and just looking at the resized area I am seeing a diameter of 0.373 inch, so with these particular cases the flaring operation bumps the size up by 0.001 inch. I don't have any pin gages handy so won't comment on the actual effect of the flaring operation but that really isn't pertinent here. What is interesting is that for the length of the carbide insert Lee does incorporate a taper that allows the die to produce a taper that sort of approximates what SAAMI calls out.

Moving on to an assembled round featuring a Berry's plated RN I am measuring a diameter of 0.375 inch, which is within the SAAMI specification for this diameter and area of the case. Granted, it's only 0.001 inch over the minimum per the -0.007 tolerance but it is within spec. BTW, I measured my Lee Factory Crimp Die at the carbide resizing ring and with ID calipers that measures 0.382 inch and that ring is also tapered a bit so that the diameter at the base isn't effected.

The takeaway here is that the Lee Premium 4 die set for the 9mm parabellum actually produces a loaded cartridge that is within the specification for this caliber per SAAMI. This isn't what I expected to see when I started measuring, I actually expected to see that Lee had just used carbide inserts with a straight sizing section like what I have with my 38 special dies. It seems Lee figured out how to do something I didn't think was possible, so Kudo's to Lee. I also have to retract my assumption that in order to taper the full length of the 9mm case you need to completely enclose the case in a tapered carbide. In fact by using the tolerance range and a shorter tapered carbide it is possible to produce an assembled round that is within the SAAMI specification.

So, what to do in this particular case. I'm wondering if using a Roll Crimp and a rather "firm" Roll Crimp may produce enough of a rise in pressure during the initial ignition process to get the case to swell and "grab" the chamber walls. One assumption I'm seeing repeated is that too much crimp might "damage" the bullet. Hey, it's a soft lead bullet. I really don't think that it's really possible to damage this bullet with a roll crimp. At most it will just make a groove in the bullet, something we all see with grease grooves on lead bullets. The question is will that Roll Crimp reduce the size of the bullet and cause other issues. I don't think it will. However it will mandate the use of moon clips because a roll crimped case won't headspace properly. What I would suggest is a call to RCBS about the purchase of a Roll Crimp Die for this application and set the standard taper crimp die aside for these particular bullets. Note, the reason I suggest going to RCBS for this Roll Crimp Die is because the do make a Roll Crimp die for this caliber and my experience with RCBS is that for them pleasing their customers is Job One AND Job Two. Meaning RCBS goes overboard a bit to keep any customer who calls more than satisfied.

 

[gwpercle]

Yes, I resized all my new cases and do not use the FCD. Now there was a gentleman at the range today that asked if I was using a Lee Full Length Resizing Die (FLRD) and I said yes. He said I should use an RCBS or Redding since they're full length dies are cut with the taper of the 9mm. I though it strange the Lee FLRD would NOT be cut with the taper, so that never ever entered my mind. BUT, the plated bullets shoot fine from the Lee FLRD cases.

Don't buy an RCBS or Redding sizing die just yet. I found the Lee sizing die (mine's a carbide sizing die) sized better (tighter) than both the steel RCBS and CH dies I have. True the steel dies are tapered but for some reason the Lee carbide die sizes the upper body so it holds the bullet the best. Check and see if your's is a carbide die or steel die.
If it is a carbide , don't give up on it just yet.

Be sure to clean all lube from cases and cylinders before shooting and use a standard pressure load so the case will expand and grip the walls.
9 mm are tough enough to get right, throw in the revolver factor and things get real "challenging". Good luck....you can do it.
Gary

 

[tejano]

I use this die for my 9mm revolvers. It seems to help. Lee Undersized Carbide Sizing Die 9mm Luger

 

[Thomas15]

Interesting post scooter123. One thing that has been in the back of my mind in this thread has to do with pressure. To be honest although I've posted some thoughts I'm really having trouble understanding just exactly what the OP is experiencing.

Anyway, I have been trying to correct a light strike situation and did a little spring manipulation and wanted to test the gun without firing in the yard at midnight. So I loaded up a few sized brass with primers to see if they would light. JUst primers, no powder or bullet. They did light but they also pushed the primer out of the primer pocket enough to cause the cylinder to be jammed. I guess this is because there isn't enough pressure?

 

[Forrest r]

If I was a gambling man I'd put my $$$ on your lee expander.

The 2 bullets:
one is a short (no lube groove) bullet that is loaded with long oal.
The other is a 12bhn (???) typically the only sell 12bhn bullets for the 38spl/38s&w/cowboy 357's. Anyway the bullet is longer and loaded to a shorter oal.

What would an expander have to do with all this?
Typical expanders are made for jacketed bullets (.355) not lead/coated/plated oversized bullets. The expanders are designed to flare the case mouth enough to alloy the bullet to enter the case but still leave it small enough to have neck tension on that .355 bullet. A factory lee expander stem and a custom expander I made to use specifically with oversized lead/coated bullets.



You need to load a couple of dummy rounds with those lead bullets and then pull them and measure them to see if they are being swaged down in the loading process.

Lead bullet ='s being loaded deeper in the case. The lead is being swaged smaller. The case will have a little springback, the lead will not. The end result is a undersized bullet that isn't being held very tightly in the case. No resistance ='s no short start pressure which ='s no case expanding to seal/grab the cylinder walls. Which in turn leads to the cases going back and binding the revolver.

The other thing to look at is take your time and measure a bunch of different cases. You'll find that they is allot of difference in the thickness of the different brands age/usage of the different cases. Some a 8/1000th's thick other are 10/1000th's, most are shorter than the recommended .750/.751.

My 9mm reloads only started to shine after I decided to take the time and go thru the mixed brass and use only 1 brand with the same font. The loads went from 2" @50ft down to less than 1".

It sounds to me like your pistol has generous cylinders and you're undersizing the lead bullets in the seating process. The end result is that there just isn't enough short start pressure in those loads to expand the brass enough to let it grab/seal the revolvers cylinders.

Just something else to check.

 

[Cobbler]

If I was a gambling man I'd put my $$$ on your lee expander.

The 2 bullets:
one is a short (no lube groove) bullet that is loaded with long oal.
The other is a 12bhn (???) typically the only sell 12bhn bullets for the 38spl/38s&w/cowboy 357's. Anyway the bullet is longer and loaded to a shorter oal.

What would an expander have to do with all this?
Typical expanders are made for jacketed bullets (.355) not lead/coated/plated oversized bullets. The expanders are designed to flare the case mouth enough to alloy the bullet to enter the case but still leave it small enough to have neck tension on that .355 bullet. A factory lee expander stem and a custom expander I made to use specifically with oversized lead/coated bullets.



You need to load a couple of dummy rounds with those lead bullets and then pull them and measure them to see if they are being swaged down in the loading process.

Lead bullet ='s being loaded deeper in the case. The lead is being swaged smaller. The case will have a little springback, the lead will not. The end result is a undersized bullet that isn't being held very tightly in the case. No resistance ='s no short start pressure which ='s no case expanding to seal/grab the cylinder walls. Which in turn leads to the cases going back and binding the revolver.

The other thing to look at is take your time and measure a bunch of different cases. You'll find that they is allot of difference in the thickness of the different brands age/usage of the different cases. Some a 8/1000th's thick other are 10/1000th's, most are shorter than the recommended .750/.751.

My 9mm reloads only started to shine after I decided to take the time and go thru the mixed brass and use only 1 brand with the same font. The loads went from 2" @50ft down to less than 1".

It sounds to me like your pistol has generous cylinders and you're undersizing the lead bullets in the seating process. The end result is that there just isn't enough short start pressure in those loads to expand the brass enough to let it grab/seal the revolvers cylinders.

Just something else to check.

I have the short expander. I set my "bell" to just barely allow the bullet to set in straight and seated the bullet. I felt some pretty goo tension then knocked it apart and measured the bullet and there was no change in diameter, so it was NOT being sized down. However, if I taper crimped to .375" the bullet reduced to .354" at the crimp to .355" just above the lube ring to the standard .356" size at the base. Maybe I should not taper crimp? Another thing I was considering was using a faster burning powder like Bulls Eye or Ramshot Competition. I'm thinking that may expand the case faster than the slower Silhouette and expand it to the chamber wall before it has a chance to back out. Thoughts?

 

[Cobbler]

Spitballing here, so consider these as suggestions only NOT something I've actually attempted.

First, the taper of the 9mm parabellum is rather distinct. Per SAAMI the case specs at 0.380 at the case mouth and 0.391 at the base (tolerance is +0.000/-0.007). This specified taper is something that I would only expect to see in factory new ammunition and it might not be present in cheaper range ammo such as WWB. Because in order to taper the entire length of the 9mm case you would need a carbide insert that is at least as long as the full length of the case or even a bit longer. That full length carbide won't come cheap and any rifle reloader will tell you that you'll need to use case lube for any full length resizing setup. Point is I don't believe you'll find an RCBS sizing die that actually produces a full length taper, for that you'll probably have to go to Dillon or Redding and be willing to pay more than about 150 dollars for the die.

However, in measuring the results from my Lee Sizing/decapping die they do appear encouraging. Down at the base where SAAMI calls out a tolerance of 0.384/0.391 I am measuring 0.388 inch. At midpoint I am measuring 0.380 inch, which is within the SAAMI specification if you average the large and small diameters called out and subtract about 1/2 the general tolerance. Finally for the last 3/16 inch or so the case measures at 0.372 inch, well blow what SAAMI calls out but this area gets resized during the flaring operation and when the bullet is pressed in. Next step is flaring, which sets the neck tension and flares the end of the case. Ignoring the diameter at the flare and just looking at the resized area I am seeing a diameter of 0.373 inch, so with these particular cases the flaring operation bumps the size up by 0.001 inch. I don't have any pin gages handy so won't comment on the actual effect of the flaring operation but that really isn't pertinent here. What is interesting is that for the length of the carbide insert Lee does incorporate a taper that allows the die to produce a taper that sort of approximates what SAAMI calls out.

Moving on to an assembled round featuring a Berry's plated RN I am measuring a diameter of 0.375 inch, which is within the SAAMI specification for this diameter and area of the case. Granted, it's only 0.001 inch over the minimum per the -0.007 tolerance but it is within spec. BTW, I measured my Lee Factory Crimp Die at the carbide resizing ring and with ID calipers that measures 0.382 inch and that ring is also tapered a bit so that the diameter at the base isn't effected.

I slugged my chamber and have .390" at the base, .386" midway and .382 near the mouth, then .3575" out to the end of the cylinder.

 

[Thomas15]

.......... Another thing I was considering was using a faster burning powder like Bulls Eye or Ramshot Competition. I'm thinking that may expand the case faster than the slower Silhouette and expand it to the chamber wall before it has a chance to back out. Thoughts?

What you are using is not working so yes try some other things.

 

[BLUEDOT37]

The Missouri LSWC backs out and jams the cylinder rotation along with binding the ejector rod that calls for bumping the rod off the wood table to get the fired rounds free and the X-Treme plated shoots fine with no jamming.

I'm thinking that may expand the case faster than the slower Silhouette and expand it to the chamber wall before it has a chance to back out. Thoughts?

.

I'm not sure how you reconcile these two. How can the fired cases be so tight that you have to "bump" the ejector rod to remove the spent case but then you keep saying you need more pressure to expand the case?

You said the fired primer looks "normal" so if the primer isn't partially exposed (sticking out) then the case pressure forced the case rearward into the blast shield (breech face) forcing the primer back in it's pocket, which is normal.

Question: when you seat & taper crimp them do you have any lead shavings on/over the case mouth? That's always one thing I closely watch when loading cast lead bullets in auto cases as that messes with the headspacing & may be worth looking at.

Can you post a picture of one of those rounds before firing & then after?

.

 

[Forrest r]

I have the short expander. I set my "bell" to just barely allow the bullet to set in straight and seated the bullet. I felt some pretty goo tension then knocked it apart and measured the bullet and there was no change in diameter, so it was NOT being sized down. However, if I taper crimped to .375" the bullet reduced to .354" at the crimp to .355" just above the lube ring to the standard .356" size at the base. Maybe I should not taper crimp? Another thing I was considering was using a faster burning powder like Bulls Eye or Ramshot Competition. I'm thinking that may expand the case faster than the slower Silhouette and expand it to the chamber wall before it has a chance to back out. Thoughts?

Thoughts?

I think you either need to remeasure or send your 12bhn bullet/lee short expander to the Smithsonian. You be the 1st person in the history of 9mm reloading that didn't squeeze that soft bullet down with that combo.

Take the same bullet and make it 18bhn and your problems will go away.

Like I said in my 1st post, those Missouri bullets don't sell a 12bhn bullet for the 9mm. They are 18bhn/.356 only.

Missouri Bullet Company

Their action series only have 18bhn/.356 bullets for the 9mm.

Missouri Bullet Company

Missouri's 38spl bullets on the other hand are a 12bhn bullet.

Missouri Bullet Company

You keep saying you have 12bhn/.356 bullets????

Anyway, with a soft bullet, a minimal bell, a expander that is designed to bell the case 1/4" deep and have .003" neck tension on a .355 bullet. You end up having problems.

But you can use a shorter bullet made out of softer material 12bhn vs 7bhn and not have the problem. Perhaps it's because:

The 7bhn plated bullet is shorter.
The 7bhn shorter plated bullet is not being seated as deep into the minimally belled case that has an expander designed for .355 jacketed bullets.

At the end of the day:
Short bullet seated shallow/longer oal ='s short expander
Long bullet seated deep/short oal ='s long expander



If a harder bullet (12bhn vs 7bhn) that is longer than the softer bullet is having problems, that's called a clue.

Myself I shoot both short bullets and long bullets in the 9mm. I load them both to the same 1.130" oal. As you can see 1 bullet seats a little deeper in the 9mm case compared to the other.



The red bullet pictured above, 10-shot group @ 50yds.



The green bullet pictured above, 10-shot group @ 50ft.



If you're not swaging those bullets down then you should be shooting bugholes in your targets like the 1 pictured above @50ft.

Myself, I never could get the 9mm's to group well until I used the type/style of expander that is designed for lead bullets. For some odd reason when I used an expander that was designed for lead bullets in the 38spl/357/44spl/44mag/45acp. Those groups tightened up as well in all those calibers.

Good luck, I'm sure you'll figure it out.

 

[gboling]

What I mean is why when shooting the lead bullet does the case NOT expand enough to keep it from backing out. Whereas the plated bullet allows the case to stay in place by the case expanding properly to grip the inside of the chamber.

The plated bullets require greater pressure too shove them down the barrel than do the lead bullets. The lesser pressure behind the lead bullets may be the cause.

I would consider Bullseye powder and or a stronger Crimp. Just another complication to consider.

 

[MWC2068]

I have a 986 and a 929 and I've come up with a couple of loads that work really well for me, I have settled on a 147 gr. TC coated bullet sized to .358 next I use a Lee U sizing die, then a Lyman M die to flair, add powder [ 4.1 gr. BE-86 or 3.6 gr. of Auto Comp ] seat the bullet to 1.125 and barley remove the flair then on the final stage I use a Lee 38 short colt roll crimp die. By using the above procedures I haven't had any more of the issues that you are talking about. I will on occasion let a "glock Buldged" piece of brass slip by and it won't just drop in the cylinder without a little help, that is when I will have trouble with extraction and have to bang the ejector rod, if I make sure that I don't use any of those type of brass everything is golden. I do shoot competition and run threw about 1500- 2000 rnds a month, that is what I have found that works for me. Also the bullet that I use is PC'd no grooves and the roll crimp works great with it. I also use the same bullet and loads when shooting my 627 using 38 short colts.

 

[tejano]

MCW2068, I too have both. I am going to try your recipe. I have everything but the lee 38 short colt roll crimp die. Midway will fix that.