Help with identity of Top-break ... Model 3

[handejector]

It means case hardened.

Lee, I certainly didn't suggest that one "beat" on the stock screw with a sledge hammer. Nor would I think that anyone with half a brain would use the tip of the screwdriver to tap on the second panel. I believe that I said "turn the gun over and gently tap on the inside of the remaining panel through the opening in the frame". That can be accomplished by a finger tip or I sometimes use a wooden dowel. I also suggested a hairdryer, not a flame thrower.

IMHO, not removing the stocks can allow the crud underneath to continue to destroy the metal frame and hurt the gun. Certainly my method is better than taking a razor knife, a putty knife or a screwdriver and prying them off as I have seen done.

Perhaps explaining your method would be more productive than ridiculing mine.

James,
I had no intention of offending you, much less making you feel ridiculed.
I stick by what I said, but confess I could have said it much more tactfully.

For that, you have my sincere apology.


I'm sure you are skilled at messing with this old stuff we both love, and I'm sure your methods work for you.
I'll still suggest you be very careful heating ivory. I've dabbled in it (collected/dealt ivory items for many decades off and on), and I can tell you heat can make it do some very bad things at times. You don't get a second chance when it goes badly.
In over nine years of running this board, I've seen a little knowledge be a very dangerous thing. With the nut on this gun right beside the edge of the split grip, any tapping, or even pushing is ill advised. The nut is almost certain to come out and probably chip little flakes of ivory. With half the grip gone, it should be no problem to simply pull the grip off. If really stuck that tight, which I doubt because when that old they always tend to shrink, I would pry gently with a wooden clothes pin.
When you say
"turn the gun over and gently tap on the inside of the remaining panel through the opening in the frame.",
most folks are going to use the screwdriver since they are already holding it! Better mention that dowel.


Anyway, I probably got panicky, getting this mental picture-
Bubba comes to forum.
Bubba reads about tapping grips off.
Bubba says "Aha! That's how ya do it!"
Then, we hear:
tap....tap...tap
TAP-TAP-TAP
TAP-TAP-TAP
hmmmm......this ain't wurkin.....
>>>>>Light Bulb!<<<<<<<
"I need a bigger hammer!"



FWIW, that American I posted above looked about like Pam's when I got it, but possibly not as milky.
About the fifth time I opened the gun, the latch spring broke. Try finding that sometime. It is a V spring. I made one from a lever spring for a double shotgun.

 

[JSR III]

Lee, your gracious apology is accepted. I perhaps over reacted to your comments. Sunday was the 25th anniversary of my fathers passing and I have been a little moody this week.

I will also add that my experience with stock removal has mostly involved wood panels and not ivory. I also did not take into consideration the fact that these stocks were broken and without a secure escutcheon tapping on same could be problematic.

Apologies also to the OP as in my desire to offer assistance I may have offered advice that could harm ivory stocks.

 

[first-model]

Guys, I agree with the advice about not removing the grips. Tempting as it is to see what is stamped into the butt, I'm not sure it's worth the risk of damaging the ivory.

If this was my gun, I'd be talking to a professional conservationist; preferably someone with deep experience in the handling of ivory. These people are out there, and for a gun of this rarity and grade it would be well worth the investment. Any effort to do anything other than preserve (such as *gasp* repairing them) would be deleterious to both the historical and monetary value of the gun.

In the meantime, my sole focus with this gun would be storing it properly, such that it is preserved for future generations of Pam's family to enjoy, and secondarily for the benefit of historians that care so deeply about these artifacts.

Mike

 

[gmborkovic]

How about this solution to grip removal. Only a suggestion for consideration. Soak the grip in vegetable oil? Dont jump on me, Im old and sensitive. I saw the oil trick once on MOPs.

 

[DesmoEd]

FWIW, that American I posted above looked about like Pam's when I got it, but possibly not as milky.

Lee,

thats a fine example of a 2nd American you posted. How did you make the transformation?

I've always been too afraid to do any type of polishing.

Thanks, Ed

 

[first-model]

How about this solution to grip removal. Only a suggestion for consideration. Soak the grip in vegetable oil? Dont jump on me, Im old and sensitive. I saw the oil trick once on MOPs.

I wouldn't. While the Smithsonian's site doesn't specifically talk about soaking ivory in any sort of oil, I would think that the possible interactions between the oil and the ivory could be deleterious. I think it's fair to assume that exposing ivory to any liquid would put it at risk.

Here's their page on ivory conservation.

https://www.si.edu/mci/english/learn_more/taking_care/ivory.html

They also provide a link to the American Institute for Conservation of Historic and Artistic Works. Their "Find a Conservator" link would be a good place for the OP to start.

American Institute for Conservation of Historic and Artistic Works

Mike

 

[gmborkovic]

OK! thanks Mike. You answered my question. And I got away unwounded.

 

[first-model]

OK! thanks Mike. You answered my question. And I got away unwounded.

My pleasure. And there's no reason for anyone to get wounded ... if I sounded insistent, it's only because I have enough of a background in conservation to know that well-intentioned efforts to "fix" things can go awry. With such a valuable artifact, there's really no way to be too cautious.

A good example of this is the number of varnished guns out there. This was a "thing" in the 1960's and 1970's, and people sincerely believed that they were contributing to the well-being of these guns. We now know that this can cause all sorts of problems (not the least of which is damaging the original finish when the varnish is removed). Ditto for laminating old documents in plastic; this just speeds up the degradation due to the paper's natural acidity.

Mike

 

[iby]

varnish

My pleasure. And there's no reason for anyone to get wounded ... if I sounded insistent, it's only because I have enough of a background in conservation to know that well-intentioned efforts to "fix" things can go awry. With such a valuable artifact, there's really no way to be too cautious.

A good example of this is the number of varnished guns out there. This was a "thing" in the 1960's and 1970's, and people sincerely believed that they were contributing to the well-being of these guns. We now know that this can cause all sorts of problems (not the least of which is damaging the original finish when the varnish is removed). Ditto for laminating old documents in plastic; this just speeds up the degradation due to the paper's natural acidity.

Mike

i Remember buying a couple of antique rifles in the early '80's that had been varnished?
Kind of weird but they were otherwise nice guns.

 

[Norcal_lover]

Hi guys,
What’s extraordinary about your group is that Everyone is trying to guide me (a complete stranger) toward the healthy preservation of Osmer’s (grandpa’s) gun, while keeping in mind my financial health, and, simultaneously discovering and keeping intact this tangible glimpse at history. Your thoughts about which path I should take are based on expert knowledge/experiences. And you’re kind! I am thankful for the guidance you all have given me (and I’ll probably be tapping on your shoulders in the near future).
I’m thinking these are my next steps:
I am prepared to spend more than a few shiny coins bringing the gun back to the best possible health. So, finally having wrestled a new printer into submission, I plan to send off paperwork to Roy in the next few days (for me, lightening speed!). Once I receive Roy’s info (of course I will share!), I plan to ask this group for recommendations for the few and proud that can work careful magic on the Model 3.
I’ve said it before and I’ll say it again, thanks guys!
Pam

 

[handejector]

I also believe Pam's gun wears the original finish.
I WOULD have the grip repaired, but only with real ivory. The proper craftsman can match the color. A fine seam will be visible, but it will look better than the half grip.
It'll also keep spiders from crawlin inside the gun.

 

[gmborkovic]

Who is the proper craftsman?

 

[Norcal_lover]

The first part of February I visited here and asked for help identifying a gun I had inherited from Grandpa. You folks had great comments, lively discussion about the finish, how the ivory grip might be repaired, and directed me to Roy Hinks, et al., to obtain documentation of the gun. The results are in and I have attached Roy’s letter and more pics of the
Model 3, Russian First Model, aka Old, Old, Russian. I’ll have more questions soon but wanted to post the letter.
Regards,
Pam

 

[first-model]

I’ll have more questions soon but wanted to post the letter.

Fantastic letter, and really neat that the gun was shipped to the west coast. An indisputable part of America's westward expansion.

Mike

 

[model3sw]

Congrats on that letter. Very nice. San Francisco shipped is not common. Many if not most went to NYC.

 

[Norcal_lover]

Thanks, Sal! I thought it was cool too.

 

[Norcal_lover]

Hiya. Many of you have helped me do some initial cleaning of Grandpa Osmer’s Model 3, Old Old Russian. I have yet another question regarding the conservation of this revolver:

I saw a recommendation here for use of Birchwood Casey blue&rust remover so tried it on a rusted part of the sideplate. The product (and assume similar such products) did a nice job of turning the Dark rust damaged metal into a silvery appearance. So, the question to you collectors: do I lighten the very significant dark rust damage on the barrel or do I leave it au natural?

I’ve learned: I attached a picture of treated sideplate and non-treated barrel. Again, thanks for guidance.

Pam

 

[first-model]

So, the question to you collectors: do I lighten the very significant dark rust damage on the barrel or do I leave it au natural?

I’ve learned: I attached a picture of treated sideplate and non-treated barrel. Again, thanks for guidance.

I wouldn't use it, but I value historic conservation over appearance. Removing the original blue (even if it is partially obscured by surface corrosion) removes original finish that can never be replaced, and IMHO that's a loss.

Mike

 

[Wiregrassguy]

Pam,
I thought you ordered the Blue Wonder Cleaner. That should remove the rust and leave any of the blue original finish. If you want to scrub it, get some bronze or copper wool (a pure copper Choreboy pad will also work).

 

[mmaher94087]

I don't see a blue finish, only nickel. I, like Mike, tend to leave the finish "as-found". In my way of thinking, the as-found finish is a badge of honor. The finish is a testament of the use and history of the revolver. Everyone in the class doesn't get a trophy for excellence.