hornet spray vs. attacker

[AirLitenewbie]

So here's your weird question for the day. I'm a female counselor working in solo practice. I am almost always the last person out of the building at night. In addition to having an ex with a history of violence, there is always the chance that I may find myself in my office with a really unstable client (thankfully, this has yet to happen to me, but has happened to others in my field -- a few of them have been killed).

I always have my 640 with me in the office, but there's no way to have it within reach while I'm working. Trust me, I've tried every possible scenario to have it within usable distance, and it's just not possible without having clients see it. As you can imagine, the presence of a firearm would NOT be comforting to the people who come to see me.

Here's where the hornet spray comes in. I'm thinking it's a good first line of defense for several reasons: I have it sitting right next to my chair where I can easily grab it, and its presence isn't going to cause anyone to think twice (if they notice it at all). You get a focused stream with long-distance accuracy, and enough contents to blast away for a good minute or more if necessary.

I'm thinking that this alone might mess up an attacker enough to allow me a clean escape, but at the very least, would slow him down enough to allow me to get to the 640.

My question, if anyone knows, is what the medical consequences of a faceful of hornet spray are likely to be. Temporary blindness, I'd guess, but is there the possibility of permanent eye damage? And how about compromised ability to breathe? Any other effects that you know of?

Not that I'm concerned for the long-term welfare of someone who has made me fear for my life, mind you. I'd just like to be as well-educated as possible about my self-defense methods.

Any other ideas are always welcome. Thanks in advance for your thoughts.

 

[watchmanjimg]

First off, where are you keeping the 640 if not on your person (where it belongs if you want the best chance of using it to defend yourself)? Second, have you considered the possibility of an unstable client getting hold of it?

Leaving the foregoing aside for a moment, I'm not sure why you'd consider using hornet spray for self-defense when purpose-built chemical formulations are readily available.

 

[gunlovingirl]

Wasp/hornet spray does work, but some jurisdictions prohibit using it for self defense. So check with your local authorities. I've heard of cases where it was used, and have never heard of any permanent damage being done to the attacker. I'm not sure what your office/desk area looks like, but there are "holsters" made that fasten to the bottom/back of a desk. I also don't know your office attire, but you couldn't wear a belly band or shoulder holster? It's hard for me to imagine an office setting where it's impossible to have your gun concealed but still within reach. Good luck to you, and hopefully you'll never have to use either the spray OR your gun!

 

[jimmyj]

If your CCW is not on your person: ITS TOO FAR AWAY!!
I would suggest that you change your office attire to accomadate your CCW.

 

[AirLitenewbie]

First off, where are you keeping the 640 if not on your person (where it belongs if you want the best chance of using it to defend yourself)? Second, have you considered the possibility of an unstable client getting hold of it?

Leaving the foregoing aside for a moment, I'm not sure why you'd consider using hornet spray for self-defense when purpose-built chemical formulations are readily available.

The 640 is about eight feet away. I know, I know -- it might as well be in the next room. The reality of my office set-up and attire is that having it on me just isn't an option. There are ways I could have it within a foot or two and out of sight, but clients sit six feet away and a problem guy would be all over me before I could ever get a drawer pulled open and get my hand on a gun. It would also occasionally be possible for a client to get an accidental glimpse if I had it closer, and I just don't want any of them to have that experience, frankly. It's currently out of sight so no one would know it's in the office until they see it in my hand, so I'm not worried about someone else acquiring it.

As to hornet spray over dedicated products -- super cheap, and hides well in plain sight. The latter is my favorite reason for it -- I can have it right there exactly where I need it, without drawing unwarranted attention or worrying anyone.

I will take Misty's good advice about contacting my local police chief. He actually knows me, due to past travails involving afore-mentioned violent ex, and has always been very helpful with security information.

And amen to the idea of never having to use any of this stuff. I'll be a very happy camper indeed if I can be fully prepared and never have a need for any of it.

 

[watchmanjimg]

I definitely share your wish that you'll never need to defend yourself, and I'm not flaming you. You're obviously concerned enough about your safety to arm yourself, but it seems like your preparation is at odds with your stated goal. Your firearm is neither completely accessible nor secure, and your nonlethal option isn't intended for use against humans.

It's up to you to decide how to go about this, but where there's a will there's a way. Most of us have found acceptable carry methods that aren't visible to others, and I'm confident that you can too. If dressing around your 640 won't work, what about a small auto?

 

[AirLitenewbie]

it seems like your preparation is at odds with your stated goal.

where there's a will there's a way.

Most of us have found acceptable carry methods that aren't visible to others, and I'm confident that you can too. If dressing around your 640 won't work, what about a small auto?

I appreciate the non-flaming, because what you're picking up on is the ambivalence that I've been struggling with since this started. I never had any desire to own guns, and until life brought an issue to my doorstep that required arming up, I never would have. I've worked my way through the initial distress at having to go this route at all, am convinced it is my best option, and am glad to have the resources I now have.

I'm still at the stage where I'm figuring out how to work guns into the life I have and want, rather than what feels to me like reworking my life to fit around the guns. Sure, I could manage some sort of concealed carry in the office if I was willing to junk most of my wardrobe and also rearrange furniture in a less therapeutic/client-friendly manner. But so far, I'm not willing to do those things because it feels like too much a violation of who I am and want to be. Maybe someday it won't feel like that, but so far, it does. In the meantime then, I'm trying to work it to the best advantage that I can within my self-imposed limitations. Most of me says yes to having guns, but some part still says no. I'm working on it.

As to an auto, I ruled those out due to concern about reliability. I'm fairly convinced that a revolver is least likely to let me down if I need it. Bummer too, because revolvers are so much harder to conceal.

I appreciate your patience as you try to help. FWIW, my time during appointments in the office is actually my area of least concern, security-wise. I'm just looking for easy ways to beef that up, just because. The 640 is on me most of the rest of the time, and most especially when I get home at night, because being in transit and home alone are likely my higher-risk times, given my particular situation.

 

[The Big D]

You raise valid questions but wonder why you would be willing to shoot someone but are concerned about injuring them with bug spray. But that's not my point.

There are literally thousands of female LEO's in the US who manage to CCW without anyone knowing they carry. You could do the same. You indicate you are new to the gun toting world so perhaps you are not aware of the myriad holster options that exist.

TRUST ME WHOLLY IN THIS REGARD...THERE ARE HOLSTERS YOU CAN WEAR THAT WOULD NOT COMPROMISE YOUR WARDROBE AND NOBODY WILL KNOW YOU ARE CCW. (Pardon the CAPS! )

I am adamant in my belief that if you want/need to carry a gun said gun belongs on your person...not on the car seat, in the glove box, in your desk drawer or anywhere else it could be when you most need it.

Feel free to PM me if I can offer further assistance.

Be safe.

 

[watchmanjimg]

Thanks for the kind words, AirLitenewbie. I'd say most of us on the forum are happy to help, although some can get a bit ornery at times.

Your concern regarding the reliability of auto vs. revolver once again shows that you've put a lot of thought into this even if you're not a typical "gun person." Although my preferred carry piece is a revolver for most applications, there are many autos available that are reliable enough for self-defense. If you think an auto would fit more easily into your lifestyle, don't rule it out as an option. Whatever you can do to make it more likely that you'll carry is a plus. Remember the old saying about the first rule in a gunfight: Have a gun!

You mentioned that your higher-risk times are while you're in transit and when you're home alone. If your ex really wants to come after you there's a good chance it will happen when and where you expect it least. Thus, your concern about beefing up security in your office--where you perceive less of a threat--is well founded. I know you're working through the process right now, but bear in mind that an attacker won't adhere to your timetable. The sooner you shore up your plans, the better.

As he's been known to do in the past, The Big D has posted while I'm sitting here typing. As usual, I agree with his sage advice and also invite you to PM should you have other questions.

Good luck!

 

[indiandave]

Look at the web site the corneredcat. This is a web site for women who want to carry and shoot firearms. Lots of information there.

 

[Larry from Bend]

I don't have any personal knowledge about Wasp Spray but I'd like to talk about firearm choice. Sounds like you're convinced that you can't CC the 640 in your office. If it won't work for you then you've got the wrong firearm. There are times when I can't/won't carry my AirWeight Model 38. When that happens I carry this KelTec .32 auto. It weighs 6 oz. and is very thin. You can conceal this in a suit jacket pocket. It's never had any reliability issues with Gold Dot or hardball ammo. No, it's not as effective as a .38 special.

 

[38-44HD45]

What I want is a can of that wasp spray that will spray for a full minute! I have wasp problems, and all the commercial sprays I've found have a few seconds worth, at best.

In all seriousness, you need to learn to dress around your gun, as well as spend some time looking at the multitude of available carry options available today. A J-snubby can be carried such as to be virtually undetectable, in so many ways that there really is no excuse not to have it on your person. Granted, the extra weight of a 640 over a 642/442 or a 340-class Airlite makes it a LITTLE harder, but not that much.

The other suggestions I've seen above have been good. Congratulations on having recognized the need to be armed. Now, you just need to come to grips with what "being armed" really means. Best of luck to you!

 

[AirLitenewbie]

Many thanks to you all, and thanks for the reminder about the corneredcat website; I actually have that bookmarked and had forgotten about it. Will go check it now.

What would help me most at this point is links for holsters that you think would work with fitted clothing not generally involving layers (other than what I might find on corneredcat). Better yet, get me in touch with a fellow therapist who has worked out the realities of effective self-defense with the necessities of running an effective therapy office. It really is an environment with some unusual challenges in that regard, and I'd love to know how others have dealt with it.

 

[jimonfly]

AirLiteNewbie, I just wanted to say that the wasp spray idea is pretty good. I keep a can at the front door for my kids to use in case they are in a situation where someone tries to force their way in. It's also good to use on the wasps that try to invade the front porch. I've heard mixed reviews vs. pepper spray but it seems that it is more focused to where you aim it, and the side affects to those around you aren't as great. At the same time, I've read that it isn't as effective as pepper spray.

When my wife started shooting we looked into several carry options for her M&P 9c. What works for me definitely doesn't work for her. Michael Bane from DownRangeTV host several shooting shows and has a weekly podcast. He always talks about the SafePacker, saying it blends in good, and has even been mistaken for a day planner when he goes to restaurants. Don't know if this is true or not, but it was one option we are considering for her. The link is here, but I think MidwayUSA sells them as well, maybe cheaper. It may be something you can have in plain sight on your desk, but still be concealed.

Safepacker Concealed Carry Holster, Concealed Weapon Holster

 

[walnutred]

Have you considered a neck holster? gun_neckchain_rigs

 

[38-44HD45]

Airlite, how do you usually dress? Pants, skirt? I'm asking because the carry method I might recommend would vary, depending on your attire. Of course, I reiterate, one should always dress to the gun, not "gun to the clothes." I'm an attorney, and on days I'm not in court, I'd usually rather not wear a jacket. Most days, I do anyway, for concealment.

Is it common for your patients/clients to hug you or touch you? If not, that helps.

 

[one_fast_ls1]

Here's a question that might help us figure out why you can't hide a firearm...

What exactly do you DO?

Hell- I bet even a stripper could hide a gun on them. Maybe not a Smith airweight, but a 5 shot .22 derringer. Better than wasp spray.

Not trying to be rude, but all this "mystery" about your office and office attire is really annoying. So lets get some details so we can help.

Frankly, maybe your picking the wrong gun. A Kel Tec PF9 is slim, so are most small .380's, and with a holster- they barely print. Most of the new automatics are just as reliable as revolvers.

 

[bitstream]

Here's an idea, can't you carry your 640 the rest of the time and pickup a slim, compact auto to conceal on you during the therapy sessions? Then you get your 640 the rest of the time, but still have something on you better than wasp spray.

Agreed with others; please give some idea of your attire. Would an ankle holster work? I know a lot of professional ladies wear nice, sharp looking jackets that would easily hide a shoulder holster. You can also look at purse holsters (I can't see a client getting jumpy because your purse is sitting on the table next to you).

 

[AirLitenewbie]

Airlite, how do you usually dress? Pants, skirt? I'm asking because the carry method I might recommend would vary, depending on your attire. Of course, I reiterate, one should always dress to the gun, not "gun to the clothes." I'm an attorney, and on days I'm not in court, I'd usually rather not wear a jacket. Most days, I do anyway, for concealment.

Is it common for your patients/clients to hug you or touch you? If not, that helps.

My clothing is dressy office-wear, generally light-weight: pants, skirts, blouses that fit fairly well. Winter is nice for baggy, over-sized sweaters but other than that, I've got fabrics that would print like crazy, and a personal build lacking the curves that would make for better hiding places. None of this mattered in the past, which is why I'm still catching up to it all. I have made changes in my day-to-day living that my family and friends have found nearly shocking, though they understand the need; it's not that I refuse to make any changes as some may think. I've made them as fast as I can stand to, and intend to continue as I can.

Good question about the hugs. Yes, that happens, probably two or three times a day.

In keeping with the therapy thing of not creating obstacles between oneself and clients, there is open space between me and them, so all of me is in full view at all times, otherwise I'd seriously consider an ankle holster at least sometimes. Neck chain won't work because of neck arthritis (getting older isn't nearly as much fun as everybody says it is).

Another thing I like about the hornet spray, other than that I can literally have it at my fingertips, has to do with what I've read about the sometimes amazing abilities of adrenalized attackers to keep coming even after they've been hit. I figure that however wired, close, or big he is, I've got some advantage if he can't see. I'm thinking I will always be able to get the spray going more quickly than I'd be able to draw and fire a concealed weapon. And for those who missed it in earlier posts, I am NOT worried about hurting an attacker with bug spray while being willing to shoot him. I'm asking about effects of the spray so I can know what to expect and plan accordingly.

 

[AirLitenewbie]

Here's an idea, can't you carry your 640 the rest of the time and pickup a slim, compact auto to conceal on you during the therapy sessions? Then you get your 640 the rest of the time, but still have something on you better than wasp spray.

Agreed with others; please give some idea of your attire. Would an ankle holster work? I know a lot of professional ladies wear nice, sharp looking jackets that would easily hide a shoulder holster. You can also look at purse holsters (I can't see a client getting jumpy because your purse is sitting on the table next to you).

This may be something I'll have to consider at some point. I'm also liking the idea of the day-planner-looking holster that can sit on the desk (thank you, jimonfly).

If I could really get my head around this and had a rather large clothing budget available, I'd go to all jackets, all the time, and a shoulder holster. That would do nicely. That would be a big, big change. Doable, but my head's not there yet.