++
if your local police department does not know the laws of your community.... your area maybe..... a ball of confusion.....
how concealed is concealed?
- Thread starter mod57
- Start date
if your local police department does not know the laws of your community.... your area maybe..... a ball of confusion.....
Unless you are going around waving a gun in a threatening manner, I wouldn't worry about it.
Here's some information on it:
Going Armed to the Terror of the PeopleNorth Carolina Criminal Law
Here's the basics on this common law offense:
Statute
This is a common law offense. State v. Dawson, 272 N.C. 535, 541-42 (1968); State v. Huntly, 25 N.C. 418, 418 (1843); State v. Staten, 32 N.C. App. 495, 496-97 (1977) (citing Dawson).
Elements
A person guilty of this offense
(1) arms himself or herself with an unusual and dangerous weapon
(2) for the purpose of terrifying others and
(3) goes about on public highways
(4) in a manner to cause terror to the people.
Punishment
Class 1 misdemeanor. G.S. 14-3(a).
Heck; get real, if they knew all the criminal laws and civil ordinances they enforce, their nuance's and every applicable court rulings on those laws......... they would be called "super lawyers" not cops.
Most officers in my "burb of the Burgh" probably haven't run into a gun toting local. IIRC in Pa. only 7% of the adult population has CC permits.....bet 80-90% of those here don't carry on a regular basis..... so maybe a hundred or less are carrying on a regular basis..... and that strikes me as a high number.....
nachogrande
Member
"GET REAL"
Pa is a pretty big state. I wouldn't be surprised if we had 100 CC's from Pa on this sight alone. It shouldn't be too hard for someone else to look up.
Pa is a pretty big state. I wouldn't be surprised if we had 100 CC's from Pa on this sight alone. It shouldn't be too hard for someone else to look up.
From time to time concealed carry permit holders express concern for "brandishing" a firearm and fear that an LEO seeing their concealed firearm "print" could result in this charge.
Anything's possible, however in most jurisdictions "brandishing" means to display, show or exhibit the firearm in a manner which another person might find threatening. And in most jurisdictions it's also means you displayed it for reasons other than self defense.
Generally speaking mere printing, or having the wind blow a cover garment off your firearm is not going to be considered brandishing as neither of those acts involve any intention to threaten anyone.
On the other hand, if people reported you as "waving" or showing your gun around, the police responding to the "man with a gun" report are most likely going to arrest the man with the gun and let the court sort it out, so there's value in being discreet.
If you however are angry, and displaying a firearm, your angry behavior in combination with just having a gun will usually be sufficient to convict you on a brandishing charge. If you are going to carry a firearm, you need to understand that you've essentially forfeited your right to be angry with people and yell at people, shake your fist at idiot drivers, etc, because it will put you in a very bad light if your gun then has to come out in a situation you'll be viewed as having started.
And of course if you intentionally lift your shirt to expose the firearm for the purpose of intimidating someone (and are not doing it in a legitimate use of self defense), most officers are going to consider that a crime and arrest you for it.
Check your state laws to see to what extent self defense is or is not a justification for "brandishing". In VA for example the law states:
It shall be unlawful for any person to point, hold or brandish any firearm or any air or gas operated weapon or any object similar in appearance, whether capable of being fired or not, in such a manner as to reasonably induce fear in the mind of another or hold a firearm or any air or gas operated weapon in a public place in such a manner as to reasonably induce fear in the mind of another of being shot or injured. However, this section shall not apply to any person engaged in excusable or justifiable self-defense.
I added the high lights to the parts that address the "reasonably induce fear" element and the justification for self defense.
Anything's possible, however in most jurisdictions "brandishing" means to display, show or exhibit the firearm in a manner which another person might find threatening. And in most jurisdictions it's also means you displayed it for reasons other than self defense.
Generally speaking mere printing, or having the wind blow a cover garment off your firearm is not going to be considered brandishing as neither of those acts involve any intention to threaten anyone.
On the other hand, if people reported you as "waving" or showing your gun around, the police responding to the "man with a gun" report are most likely going to arrest the man with the gun and let the court sort it out, so there's value in being discreet.
If you however are angry, and displaying a firearm, your angry behavior in combination with just having a gun will usually be sufficient to convict you on a brandishing charge. If you are going to carry a firearm, you need to understand that you've essentially forfeited your right to be angry with people and yell at people, shake your fist at idiot drivers, etc, because it will put you in a very bad light if your gun then has to come out in a situation you'll be viewed as having started.
And of course if you intentionally lift your shirt to expose the firearm for the purpose of intimidating someone (and are not doing it in a legitimate use of self defense), most officers are going to consider that a crime and arrest you for it.
Check your state laws to see to what extent self defense is or is not a justification for "brandishing". In VA for example the law states:
It shall be unlawful for any person to point, hold or brandish any firearm or any air or gas operated weapon or any object similar in appearance, whether capable of being fired or not, in such a manner as to reasonably induce fear in the mind of another or hold a firearm or any air or gas operated weapon in a public place in such a manner as to reasonably induce fear in the mind of another of being shot or injured. However, this section shall not apply to any person engaged in excusable or justifiable self-defense.
I added the high lights to the parts that address the "reasonably induce fear" element and the justification for self defense.
nachogrande
Member
Pa CC #'s
Per yahoo, as of 12/31/2011 Fl was #1 (there's a good reason it's called the gunshine state)
ACTIVE CC licenses Fl 887,000, #2 THEN was Pa with 786,000. "Current #'s (2015)" Fl still #1 with almost 1.5 million & Tx #2 with app 1/2 that many, Pa was in the top 5.
Per yahoo, as of 12/31/2011 Fl was #1 (there's a good reason it's called the gunshine state)
ACTIVE CC licenses Fl 887,000, #2 THEN was Pa with 786,000. "Current #'s (2015)" Fl still #1 with almost 1.5 million & Tx #2 with app 1/2 that many, Pa was in the top 5.It depends on your local statutes.
Most jurisdictions have some form of open carry these days. If that's the case in your area, then some very occasional exposure isn't a huge deal. Just don't be one of those guys with a muscle-T so tight you can read the gun's serial number through it.
What you don't want is for the gun to be visible all the time. Concealment itself is a form of retention--if somebody doesn't know you have a gun, it's very difficult for them to grab it off you when you're not looking.
In a few states and cities, there's no provision for open carry. In those, what you'd be liable for is very much at the discretion of whatever law enforcement officer you're dealing with. In some places, that might mean an embarrassing "Hey buddy, your gun is showing" conversation. In others--and especially if you're just a jerk that made zero effort to conceal--you could be taking a ride, and lose your license. It depends on how supportive of CCW your local chief law enforcements are (your sheriff, the Chief of Police, the mayor, the State Police, etc). Sometimes it even makes a difference where you are. There's no open carry in my state, but if you hit a diner in the boonies during hunting season, you sure wouldn't know that.
There are also some "gray areas". Some establishments might decide to ask you to leave. Ditto for malls and officious mall cops. Or you might find yourself in a literal gray area. For instance, many states don't allow concealed carry on municipal property, but the actual statute is poorly-worded. What counts as a municipal property? Does a public park count? How about a county library? Are the parking lots included? If you're going to carry there, best to be really concealed, and limit your activities to prevent exposure.
Point being, they sure don't make it easy for you.
NYLakesider said:
Muss Muggins said:
Lemme pop in here and explain some of the insanity we deal with up here, mebbe stick up for this young deputy and such.
Now, young guys like me have the "new" style NY pistol permit. It's a plastic card, like a driver's license, issued by the county you're a resident of (so yes, each county has a different version!). On the back is a listing of all the handguns you own (at least when you got the license). So yes, this means there are guys that have two (or more) cards to fit all their guns.
In some counties--including the one that I presume NYL's buddy lives in, mine--it comes marked either "Hunting and Target" or "Unrestricted". Since the State of NY doesn't differentiate between a "license to own" and a "license to carry", the judges who issue such permits decided to place an "additional restriction" on them. The legality of that is questionable, but since the issuing of permits is at their discretion, nobody's gonna fight them on it. Anyways, a "Hunting and Target" permit means that you can own a pistol, and can technically carry it concealed on your way to or from--you guessed it--Hunting or Target Shooting.
Yes, this means there are a few complete morons that drive around with a concealed pistol, and a pair of earmuffs tossed in the back of the truck. "I'll just tell the cop I'm on the way to this or that range!", they've told me. Sounds like a a great way to treat a cop like he's as dumb as you are, buddies, and wind up with your hat in your hands begging the judge to keep your guns.
Lately around here, and in a few other counties, you can either apply or take a class and apply to get an "Unrestricted" permit. This means that you can carry concealed inside of what NYS allows you--no municipal buildings, no schools, that sort of thing.
Now, if you're a bit older than me (they stopped issuing these, I think, around 2010 or so), you might have a paper license, scrawled with "Hunting and Target". Depending on how many permits your county issues, some are hand-written, and some they went all out and got a stamp for. Anyways, same deal as the new plastic ones. On the back, you'll find a listing of all the guns that person owns. Again--there are a whole bunch of them, one for each county.
Comedy of comedies, when you get a new gun, do you know what they want you to do? Just write it on the back! The hell's the point?
Now, if you're chronologically-gifted, you might actually have a permit that predates the "Hunting and Target" restriction. These permits aren't marked at all, and as such, are an "unrestricted" license. You don't run into too many, since all the guys that have them are getting up there in the years. Old folk get don't get stopped by the cops too much, and old gun-ownin' folk get stopped even less cuz they're a law-abidin' sort. Even fewer carry, so no reason to have to show their licenses.
On top of all this, not every county bothered with the restriction. Some just passed out unrestricted licenses like hotcakes. Hell, some counties hand out pre-signed license amendments so you can buy a pistol and take it home the same day! Imagine that. Most others, you see, you buy the gun or put a deposit down, get the receipt, take it or mail it to the sheriff's, wait two or three weeks, get the amendment in the mail, then pick up your gun.
So yes--I can totally see this deputy not seeing an "Unrestricted" and getting all hopped-up. Mostly, they got better things to pay attention to than checking our licenses all the time, so I'll forgive him. I mean, wouldn't be that hard to wipe the "H&T" ink off an old license. Come to think of it, the only people that have ever looked at mine are the guys that sell me my guns, and Mrs Bowen up at the Sheriff's office.
Even worse, a lot of these guys with the old "grandfathered"...heh, literally...licenses moved to new counties, the nerve of 'em. So now the perennial question is, do I get a new license in my new county like I'm supposed to, and risk losing my "Unrestricted" permit!
And comedy of comedies, the state is supposed to be computerizin' all the records of all the counties, all of which are currently on paper files. GL with that, m8s.
Last edited:
Lemme pop in here and explain some of the insanity we deal with up here, mebbe stick up for this young deputy and such.
Now, young guys like me have the "new" style NY pistol permit. It's a plastic card, like a driver's license, issued by the county you're a resident of (so yes, each county has a different version!). On the back is a listing of all the handguns you own (at least when you got the license). So yes, this means there are guys that have two (or more) cards to fit all their guns.
In some counties--including the one that I presume NYL's buddy lives in, mine--it comes marked either "Hunting and Target" or "Unrestricted". Since the State of NY doesn't differentiate between a "license to own" and a "license to carry", the judges who issue such permits decided to place an "additional restriction" on them. The legality of that is questionable, but since the issuing of permits is at their discretion, nobody's gonna fight them on it. Anyways, a "Hunting and Target" permit means that you can own a pistol, and can technically carry it concealed on your way to or from--you guessed it--Hunting or Target Shooting.
Lately around here, and in a few other counties, you can either apply or take a class and apply to get an "Unrestricted" permit. This means that you can carry concealed inside of what NYS allows you--no municipal buildings, no schools, that sort of thing.
Now, if you're a bit older than me (they stopped issuing these, I think, around 2010 or so), you might have a paper license, like this (sorry for the large image size):
See how it's scrawled with "Hunting and Target"? Depending on how many permits your county issues, some are hand-written, and some they went all out and got a stamp for. Anyways, same deal as the new plastic ones. On the back, you'll find a listing of all the guns that person owns. Again--there are a whole bunch of them! The above is an Albany County permit, which is a little different from the ones in adjacent counties.
Comedy of comedies, when you get a new gun, do you know what they want you to do? Just write it on the back! The hell's the point?
Now, if you're chronologically-gifted, you might actually have a permit that predates the "Hunting and Target" restriction. These permits aren't marked at all, and as such, are an "unrestricted" license. You don't run into too many, since all the guys that have them are getting up there in the years. Old folk get don't get stopped by the cops too much, and old gun-ownin' folk get stopped even less cuz they're a law-abidin' sort. Even fewer carry, so no reason to have to show their licenses.
On top of all this, not every county bothered with the restriction. Some just passed them out like hotcakes. Hell, some counties hand out pre-signed license amendments so you can buy a pistol and take it home the same day! Imagine that. Most others, you see, you buy the gun or put a deposit down, get the receipt, take it or mail it to the sheriff's, wait two or three weeks, get the amendment in the mail, then pick up your gun.
So yes--I can totally see this deputy not seeing an "Unrestricted" and getting all hopped-up. Mostly, they got better things to pay attention to than checking our licenses all the time. I mean, wouldn't be that hard to wipe the "H&T" ink off an old license. Come to think of it, the only people that have ever looked at mine are the guys that sell me my guns, and Mrs Bowen up at the Sheriff's office.
Even worse, a lot of these guys with the old "grandfathered"...heh, literally...licenses moved to new counties, the nerve of 'em. So now the perennial question is, do I get a new license in my new county like I'm supposed to, and risk losing my "Unrestricted" permit!
And comedy of comedies, the state is supposed to be computerizin' all the records of all the counties, all of which are currently on paper files. GL with that, m8s.
Bolded, That's me, got my (clean) permit in Albany county early 70s.
When I retired and moved up to what was my camp at the lake transferred to Saratoga .Made it a point to double check with Mrs Bowen about our(wife also) unrestricted permits. Also a year ago or so I rechecked it with the new records boss. Just for the heck of it I learned about Mulligan VS Williams years ago,.
Thanks for jumping in, I realize this nonsense means nothing to people that live in free states, but it behooves people in this (Safe Act) state to be well up on the law!
The site you cited is actually a site, not a sight, but maybe this belongs on some other thread.
keith44spl
Member
I sometimes carry concealed........
Jest a jacket in winter and a long tailed shirt in summer.
I'm not overly self–conscious about the whole deal...As some have said,
most folks don't know what's going on in their own little world.
Too self absorbed to even notice their own actions,
lit'l on who's carrying a personal defense firearm concealed.
.
Jest a jacket in winter and a long tailed shirt in summer.
I'm not overly self–conscious about the whole deal...As some have said,
most folks don't know what's going on in their own little world.
Too self absorbed to even notice their own actions,
lit'l on who's carrying a personal defense firearm concealed.
.
Last edited:
oneounceload
Member
You can't OC in FL in those locations; that will get you in serious trouble.
nachogrande
Member
THANKS FOR THE GRAMMAR CORRECTION.
I actually knew that one, I was just in a hurry I guess & not paying attention. A thousand pardons.
I actually knew that one, I was just in a hurry I guess & not paying attention. A thousand pardons.
I consider it a solid education on what's going to happen to a lot of people eventually. Everyone says "oh, only in the NE and California, never in my state!"
Last bunch of folks to say that lived in Colorado. Arizona or Nevada's next. Gotta get out and vote in every election--you get the wrong governor, then you lose a commanding majority in the state assembly/senate, and along comes one good tragedy--you get what we got, overnight.
Walkingwolf
Member
- Joined
- Apr 16, 2017
- Messages
- 1,624
- Reaction score
- 1,655
I can OC in the shopping center, and is legal, and it has nothing to do with just because I can. It is my wife, and I preferred form of carry. Some people just need to worry about their own envelope. OC has been protected for over 70 years in NC, and it was the only option until 1995. It is normal here, but I know some people may not find that acceptable. Good thing that roads go both ways.
As far as CC, my bug stays in my pocket, never had anyone notice. Most people probably in most states just do not care enough to notice if someone is CC, even if they print.
As far as CC, my bug stays in my pocket, never had anyone notice. Most people probably in most states just do not care enough to notice if someone is CC, even if they print.
Last edited:
Carrying in malls can get a little strange. We have a local mall that is posted no handguns on the main entrance in the front. However, there is a sporting goods store that has it's own separate entrance and it is not posted, and neither is the entrance from their store into the rest of the mall. In addition, the door on the back side of the mall leading to the food court is not posted.
I am sure people have carried in that mall numerous times before ever seeing that sign on the front door. It's thus ambiguous at best, and it really comes down to any individual stores choosing to post at their particular entrances if it's really important to them.
However, I suspect most people who conceal carry there don't feel like arguing the point with mall security, or risking a "man with a gun" compliant to law enforcement, and make sure concealed is truly concealed. I suspect security would be asking anyone carrying openly to leave the premises, and in fact I've never seen anyone open carry there. That said, I might make it to the mall all of 2 or 3 times a year.
The malls I have visited in the Raleigh area have not been posted, but again I have never seen anyone open carrying. It's legal, but it's not common. And again, I might get there 1 or 2 times a year. I'm not big on shopping malls.
PPS1980
Member
Lots of good advice on CC here. The one aspect of CC that I do not see addressed often online is 2nd magazine carry. In those instances where I have become aware of someone else attempting to CC it has usually been either a brief flash because their cover garment rode up or moved OR their method of magazine carry was as obvious as a brick. Too many of the magazine holsters are just plain obvious and do not conceal worth a dime. I use re-purposed multi-tool holsters for my magazine. When they are exposed people think knife/multi-tool and not GUN. Too many place too much emphasis on competition speed and access for their 2nd magazine. Honestly, the snap cover on my nylon multi-tool holsters work just fine, are plenty fast enough for real life, and I can carry them vertically or horizontally on my belt.
It needs to be more than just getting out and voting. The trend lines on gun ownership are not good when you look back over the last 50 years. In 1972 49.5% of all households had at least one gun. In 2014, that had decreased to 32.4%.
In other words, when push comes to shove we're out voted anytime there is an anti-gun ballot issue and good voter turnout.
We need to recognize that we are in fact a minority, and conduct ourselves accordingly. We need to portray gun owners as responsible people with jobs and families who you stand next to every day and don't notice.
We need to point out to people that if you're standing next to two other average looking people at the grocery store, one of the three of you is a gun owner. If you're a gun owner, be aware that statistically the other to are not, and tread lightly so as not to give them a reason to oppose your ownership of guns. If you are a non gun owner, be aware that the person on your right or left probably is, and you probably can't tell which is which.
There is a very vocal and visible minority of gun owners who tend to shape the image of all gun owners as mostly being irresponsible red necks, or right wingnut extremists. In the long run, that image works against us, as it isn't the votes of the gun owners that decides gun related issues and elections on ballots - it's the votes of the moderates in between who don't own a gun, but who don't object to gun ownership. Being responsible, average people who just happen to own guns and pose no threats won't move them into the anti-gun camp - but it doesn't make many people trodding on their rights, pushing them out of their comfort zone, or portraying gun owners as dangerous, threatening or extremist to get them to vote anti-gun.
Be nice to the moderates - they are the people that keep the anti- gun folks from winning.
ChattanoogaPhil
Member
- Joined
- Oct 18, 2009
- Messages
- 14,601
- Reaction score
- 20,622
For a lot of the country it was like that in their state. Maybe some folks just don't remember or are of an age they never knew such conditions. Handgun carry was generally considered an activity for law enforcement and criminals. It's only in the past couple decades that handgun carry has become a more widely accepted practice for average Joe.
For example... Most would consider my home state of Tennessee relatively gun friendly. But take just a short trip down memory lane and look at how draconian our handgun carry laws were.
Here's a short excerpt from Tennessee Firearms Association. It's head-shaking....
Prior to 1989, Tennessee was a limited “open carry” state. Tennessee’s open carry law was limited to “army or navy” pistols but only if such pistols were carried openly in the hand. The statute did not allow citizens to holster the weapons or to carry these types of pistols concealed. A person would have to become a special deputy or receive a special police commission in order carry a handgun that did not fit the “army or navy” designation. These commissions were also necessary if the individual wanted to carry the weapon concealed or holstered.
Oh yeah... legal to carry a handgun...only in the hand..
Beyond that you had to be somebody or know somebody. Of course we've come a long way in a short time. It can move the other way just as quickly.
Civilian Permits
Last edited:
I question the those stats....... lots of folks who didn't own a gun went out and bought themselves one or two..... on several occasions over the past 9 years.............
I don't know about anyone else here .....but if Polled or asked by a medical provider or other "busy body" if I own or have guns in the house..... I just say NO!
Similar threads
