how reliable is a striker fired pistol in reguards to AD's?

[OKFC05]

how reliable is a striker fired pistol in reguards to AD's?

I know that the popular media calls everything an ACCIDENTAL DISCHARGE (AD), but for gun owners, let's set a higher standard.
Just because you did not deliberately set out to shoot the gun inappropriately, that does not automatically make it an ACCIDENT. When a gun owner does something stupid and violates one of the rules of safe gun handling, it is NEGLIGENCE.
Let's set a higher standard and call it what it is, and stop parroting the rhetoric of the anti-gunners.
This deserves to be beaten to death until we all get it right.
See Lee's post above.

I have seen exactly TWO true accidental discharges (the gun fired in normal use due to a failure) in my life, and the both were shotguns. One was a new Krieghoff that fired both barrels on closing, and the other was a semiauto with a broken firing mechanism that went full auto. I heard about, but did not witness, an AR rifle that went full auto due to a broken part.

 

[Wise_A]

Nobody is "relying on a manual safety". It's extra insurance that an ND won't happen. And they DO happen more often with Glocks.

If, tomorrow, I waved my magic wand and made every police officer in the country carry a Sig P226, there would suddenly be a rash of NDs with P226s. Would that cause you to believe that the P226 and all DA/SA pistols are any less safe than they were last week?

That's why you hear about so many NDs with the Glock platform. There are a lot of different models, in circulation with a lot of different agencies and scores of private citizens.

But the truth of the matter is that most gun owners are either minimally trained, not trained at all, or trained by somebody just as inept as they are.

Most shooters are pretty terrible. I happen to think of myself as being Pretty Good At Guns (TM). Why should I, being Pretty Good At Guns (TM), limit myself to their standard?

Most people can't shoot at 7 yards. Should I stop punching paper at 50 feet?

I know I won't shoot at my gun club anymore on weekends

Why? It's your club. You're a member. Speak up! If basic safety rules aren't being observed, then you've got to get involved.

It's incredibly frustrating for club officers when individual members complain about safety violations after the fact, or talk about "I don't go to the range at X time, because people aren't safe", instead of either speaking up at the time or at least making a note of the date and time and reporting violations.

 

[Navyvbss]

I appreciate all your comments, and for the few that said my navy training was like cattle herding you are right but the training i got in the navy was a bit more extensive then the average navy sailor lol, i can easily say i was trained by the best of the best and it wasnt at a navy base or on a ship lol, mine was a more specified and deliberately indepth training with wespons. So my technique and operational exerience with guns is pretty extensive if not almost expert but it was never with a striker fire pistol. The firing block was something i had heard about but in reading about it more recently i wasnt aure if there were any instances where this internal safety mechanism or feature what have you, fails!. That was the real reason for the question. I am awaee there are at least 2 to 3 internal safeties in most striker fired pistols including the trigger with the paddle or like mine the hinged trigger, and yes our greatest safety is between our ears and keeping our finger off the trigger and straight along the reciever until ready to fire,i just wasnt sure if there were any reports of gear malfunctions. I appreciate all your comments and appreciate all yiur time

 

[wsr]

I appreciate all your comments, and for the few that said my navy training was like cattle herding you are right but the training i got in the navy was a bit more extensive then the average navy sailor lol, i can easily say i was trained by the best of the best and it wasnt at a navy base or on a ship lol, mine was a more specified and deliberately indepth training with wespons. So my technique and operational exerience with guns is pretty extensive if not almost expert but it was never with a striker fire pistol. The firing block was something i had heard about but in reading about it more recently i wasnt aure if there were any instances where this internal safety mechanism or feature what have you, fails!. That was the real reason for the question. I am awaee there are at least 2 to 3 internal safeties in most striker fired pistols including the trigger with the paddle or like mine the hinged trigger, and yes our greatest safety is between our ears and keeping our finger off the trigger and straight along the reciever until ready to fire,i just wasnt sure if there were any reports of gear malfunctions. I appreciate all your comments and appreciate all yiur time

I'll bite, what was your job?

 

[ContinentalOp]

The firing block was something i had heard about but in reading about it more recently i wasnt aure if there were any instances where this internal safety mechanism or feature what have you, fails!. That was the real reason for the question. I am awaee there are at least 2 to 3 internal safeties in most striker fired pistols including the trigger with the paddle or like mine the hinged trigger, and yes our greatest safety is between our ears and keeping our finger off the trigger and straight along the reciever until ready to fire,i just wasnt sure if there were any reports of gear malfunctions. I appreciate all your comments and appreciate all yiur time

I hadn't picked up on your concern regarding the passive safeties, like the firing pin block. I apologize for not addressing that.

I've never heard of or read about a firing pin block failing in such a way that it would cause a gun to fire without pulling the trigger, but I recall reading of rare instances where improper maintenance led to a gun failing to fire when the trigger was pulled. With something like this it comes down to knowing your gun and how to maintain it properly.

I will say this, and I may be the only one here with this opinion. Of the striker-fired guns I'm at least somewhat familiar with, I'd be more likely to carry a Glock because, if I'm not mistaken, the striker is only about 2/3 cocked, with the trigger pull cocking it the rest of the way before firing. Even if the firing pin safety failed, as unlikely as that is, the striker shouldn't have enough energy to fire the chambered round. Some of the other striker-fired guns I've seen are 95+% cocked. I'm not saying I wouldn't carry one of those other guns simply because their strikers have more potential energy, but it would be a consideration for me. This is another reason I like hammer-fired DA guns.

I will add that I'd have no problem carrying a Glock 19, preferably with the NY1/"-" connector combo I like, in a good quality holster. But my preference would be for a DA/DAO/DAK-type trigger.

Again, just my opinion/preference.

 

[cmort666]

I will add that I'd have no problem carrying a Glock 19, preferably with the NY1/"-" connector combo I like, in a good quality holster. But my preference would be for a DA/DAO/DAK-type trigger.

Bar none, the second worst DAO trigger I've EVER seen was on a friend of a friend's Beretta 96. The guy was a Cleveland transit cop and it was his duty gun.

You'd pull the trigger and it'd just go on forever, grinding like plate tectonics until it finally went off.

The only worse trigger I've ever seen on a modern gun was a friend's Colt All American 2000. That was ASTONISHINGLY bad. It:

1. was heavier than Rosie O'Donnell.
2. stacked like a Jenga game.
3. was actually SO heavy, you thought the trigger itself would break off before it fired.

I'm out of the DA/DAO game for good. If they can't make it feel like a Model 10 with a trigger job, I'm not interested.

 

[kbm6893]

For me, the NY trigger is nothing but a liability with no upside. The killing of Akai Gurley clearly showed that even the currently outrageously heavy NYPD trigger won't stop a negligent discharge if somebody has their finger on the trigger, and if I have my finger on the trigger, it's because I'm squeezing the trigger to shoot somebody.

Accuracy impairing trigger actions never seem to stop the NYPD from having NDs, while causing them to miss... a LOT.

They're not missing because of the heavy triggers. They're missing because real shoot outs are highly stressful situations and you don't have the luxury to obtain a perfect sight picture while bullets are coming back at you. And less than 1/10 of 1% of cops fire their weapons in a year, about 35 shootings out of 35,000 cops.

And I always qualified expert with my NYPD Glock 19. And I never considered it difficult pulling the trigger.

And where do you get the "never seem to stop them from having ND's"? 35,000 cops is gonna produce more ND's then a 40 member department. I read the NY papers online everyday and don't see these ND's you speak of.

 

[Arc Angel]

All of my striker fired experience is with Glocks.

I've never seen, nor even HEARD of a Glock in proper working order going off without the trigger being pulled.

Bear in mind that a Glock (and most of the other striker fired pistols, except the Springfield XD series) is like the C programming language. it will do whatever you TELL it to, of which it's capable, no matter how stupid that might be.

If you tell C to read or write past the end of the array you're using, it'll cheerfully do it.

If you point your Glock at your foot and pull the trigger, it'll cheerfully shoot you.

1. ALWAYS carry a Glock in a holster that covers the trigger.
2. NEVER try to catch a dropped Glock. Let it fall and pick it up.
3. Stripping a Glock requires you to pull the trigger. ALWAYS ensure that a Glock is COMPLETELY cleared before trying to strip it.

Sometimes I think I shouldn't bother; I really shouldn't; and, maybe someday, I'll learn my lesson and remain silent; but, today, and before another great internet gun forum myth gets started, I'm going to point out that,

IT IS POSSIBLE TO, 'STACK' A GLOCK'S STRIKER-FIRED (SO CALLED, 'SAFE-ACTION') TRIGGER MECHANISM - IT IS POSSIBLE!

And I've worked on enough Glock triggers to know. The factory knows, too; and back around 2008-2009 the specs on Glock trigger bars were changed in order to make it more difficult for this to happen.

An undesirable consequence of the lengthened, 'sear tab' and (slightly) increased, 'tab angle' on newer Glock trigger bars is to make it more difficult to get a smoother, lighter trigger on any Glock pistol produced with these longer, and more acute trigger bars. Consequently, the triggers on my older Glock pistols are significantly smoother and have considerably less, 'let-off' than on newer Glocks.

Neither am I the only person to notice this change. At the time, this subject was discussed in depth on GT; and JR Shepard (not me) was the first commentator to point out the recent changes in Glock's redesigned trigger bars.

The point is that it used to be easier to, 'stack' the trigger a pre '08 Glock; AND, depending upon the degree of wear, it's probably still possible to do it, now. (Wouldn't want to bet my life on it not happening, OK!)

THE SAFEST WAY TO RE:HOLSTER ANY STRIKER-FIRED PISTOL IS TO REINTRODUCE THE MUZZLE OF THE PISTOL INTO THE HOLSTER WITH YOUR TRIGGER FINGER STILL (RIGIDLY) EXTENDED AND, IDEALLY, ACROSS THE OUTSIDE OF THE GUARD.

This way, the trigger will be partially protected during the beginning of reinsertion; and there'll be a momentary pause as your outstretched finger touches the top of the holster. Now, you'll be better able to feel if the muzzle is being grabbed, or getting hung up on something that might, ultimately, impinge against the trigger.

(You want to be fast coming out of the holster; but not when you're going back into it! Here, the muzzle acts like a probe. If it hangs up for any reason - even only slightly - you're going to have to stop, glance down, and take a look.)

 

[wsr]

Sometimes I think I shouldn't bother; I really shouldn't; and, maybe someday, I'll learn my lesson and remain silent; but, today, and before another great internet gun forum myth gets started, I'm going to point out that,

IT IS POSSIBLE TO, 'STACK' A GLOCK'S STRIKER-FIRED (SO CALLED, 'SAFE-ACTION') TRIGGER MECHANISM - IT IS POSSIBLE!

And I've worked on enough Glock triggers to know. The factory knows, too; and back around 2008-2009 the specs on Glock trigger bars were changed in order to make it more difficult for this to happen.

An undesirable consequence of the lengthened, 'sear tab' and (slightly) increased, 'tab angle' on newer Glock trigger bars is to make it more difficult to get a smoother, lighter trigger on any Glock pistol produced with these longer, and more acute trigger bars. Consequently, the triggers on my older Glock pistols are significantly smoother and have considerably less, 'let-off' than on newer Glocks.

Neither am I the only person to notice this change. At the time, this subject was discussed in depth on GT; and JR Shepard (not me) was the first commentator to point out the recent changes in Glock's redesigned trigger bars.

The point is that it used to be easier to, 'stack' the trigger a pre '08 Glock; AND, depending upon the degree of wear, it's probably still possible to do it, now. (Wouldn't want to bet my life on it not happening, OK!)

THE SAFEST WAY TO RE:HOLSTER ANY STRIKER-FIRED PISTOL IS TO REINTRODUCE THE MUZZLE OF THE PISTOL INTO THE HOLSTER WITH YOUR TRIGGER FINGER STILL (RIGIDLY) EXTENDED AND, IDEALLY, ACROSS THE OUTSIDE OF THE GUARD.

This way, the trigger will be partially protected during the beginning of reinsertion; and there'll be a momentary pause as your outstretched finger touches the top of the holster. Now, you'll be better able to feel if the muzzle is being grabbed, or getting hung up on something that might, ultimately, impinge against the trigger.

(You want to be fast coming out of the holster; but not when you're going back into it! Here, the muzzle acts like a probe. If it hangs up for any reason - even only slightly - you're going to have to stop, glance down, and take a look.)

How about just looking before and during the reholstering process?

 

[cmort666]

They're not missing because of the heavy triggers.

They're not hitting more because of them.

It's not a "stress" problem, because other departments don't seem to have the same problems.

Its a LACK OF TRAINING problem and it goes WAY back. I remember reading an article in "Guns" or "American Handgunner" back in the late '70s or early '80s that cited a consultant hired by the NYPD because of the alarming number of bystander shootings they were having. He said a lot of the cops he talked to seemed not to know what the front sight was for.

If you don't teach your people to keep their fingers off of their triggers when they're not shooting people, much less how to shoot accurately, you're going to end up with dead citizens and dead cops. And all of the ludicrously heavy triggers in the world won't change that.

 

[cmort666]

I have seen exactly TWO true accidental discharges (the gun fired in normal use due to a failure) in my life, and the both were shotguns. One was a new Krieghoff that fired both barrels on closing, and the other was a semiauto with a broken firing mechanism that went full auto. I heard about, but did not witness, an AR rifle that went full auto due to a broken part.

Back in the '70s, a friend from college told me that his Model 39 went full auto once when he dropped the hammer with the safety/decocker. I didn't see it happen. I only had his word for it.

 

[Arc Angel]

[/COLOR]
How about just looking before and during the reholstering process?

Amazing! Do you really need me to answer this question for you?

OK, then. Because you don't take your eyes of what you're doing while you've got a gun in your hand UNLESS you absolutely have to. (But you already knew that - Correct!)

 

[wsr]

Amazing! Do you really need me to answer this question for you?

OK, then. Because you don't take your eyes of what you're doing while you've got a gun in your hand UNLESS you absolutely have to. (But you already knew that - Correct!)

Ummm...what you are doing with the gun in your hand is reholstering...so we are back to "how about just looking before and during the reholstering process?"
I know it's not tacticool to simply look at your holster but it works

 

[Arc Angel]

Ummm...what you are doing with the gun in your hand is reholstering...so we are back to "how about just looking before and during the reholstering process?"
I know it's not tacticool to simply look at your holster but it works

You're trying too hard!

 

[wsr]

You're trying too hard!

Trying too hard to make sense...it shouldn't be this hard.
No need to make complicated tacticool ballat out or it...It's simple, you're putting your gun away look at what you are doing

 

[kbm6893]

They're not hitting more because of them.

It's not a "stress" problem, because other departments don't seem to have the same problems.

Its a LACK OF TRAINING problem and it goes WAY back. I remember reading an article in "Guns" or "American Handgunner" back in the late '70s or early '80s that cited a consultant hired by the NYPD because of the alarming number of bystander shootings they were having. He said a lot of the cops he talked to seemed not to know what the front sight was for.

If you don't teach your people to keep their fingers off of their triggers when they're not shooting people, much less how to shoot accurately, you're going to end up with dead citizens and dead cops. And all of the ludicrously heavy triggers in the world won't change that.

You're leaving out so much, but you know that. In a city of 8 MILLION, the odds of a bystander being hit are much more likely. Add in that many of those struck are hit by ricochet's and bullet fragments, or bullets that hit their target but passed through. All of those things happened during the Empire State Building shooting.

I qualified expert every single time I qualified. The NY trigger isn't that big of a deal.

Personally, I think a 3.5 pound trigger is an accident waiting to happen, unless you're using the gun to compete. For self defense, it is a liability. Be more likely to let a shot go as you draw.

If you want to compare the NYPD to other departments, use percentages, not total number of shootings. Can't compare a 35,000 member department to a 60 man department.

And let's see how good your marksmanship is if you are being shot at. Paper targets at BlackWater don't shoot back.

 

[Navyvbss]

Well this got a bit more heated then i expected lol, we can all agree that a simple solution would be to take our time and not rush reholstering, this is something we should pretty easily agree on. I appreciate all of your posts, it was a very high commented post and thats excellent. I feel that my wuestion, will the components of a striker fire simply faile at some point was answered and the ansemwer is no. Guns dont go boom unless a booger hook or something else grabs the trigger and pulls it. So ill make sure my holster is clear and holster with caution and ill be ok. Thank you all. Be safe and 2nd on!

 

[cmort666]

Personally, I think a 3.5 pound trigger is an accident waiting to happen, unless you're using the gun to compete. For self defense, it is a liability. Be more likely to let a shot go as you draw.

Then don't use one.

If you're drawing with your finger on the trigger, you'll probably eventually shoot yourself or somebody else who doesn't need to be shot with a 12lb. or a 20lb. trigger.

Is "keep your finger off the trigger until you've acquired your target and are committed to shooting" REALLY that hard?

Ludicrously heavy triggers are NOT a substitute for training, good judgment and common sense.

 

[kbm6893]

Then don't use one.

If you're drawing with your finger on the trigger, you'll probably eventually shoot yourself or somebody else who doesn't need to be shot with a 12lb. or a 20lb. trigger.

Is "keep your finger off the trigger until you've acquired your target and are committed to shooting" REALLY that hard?

Ludicrously heavy triggers are NOT a substitute for training, good judgment and common sense.

How many shootings you been in?

I'm talking about placing your finger on the trigger after the gun clears leather. Think you won't do that? That's if you can even find the trigger. Massive adrenaline dump and fear tend to screw with your motor skills.

So a guy sticks his gun in your face and starts rifling through your pockets. You manage to swat the gun away as you draw yours. First guy to shoot, wins. You think you're gonna only touch the trigger once you have aligned you're front sight to your rear?

And how much good judgement and common sense are you gonna have if you are about to die?

Come on, man. Join the real world.

 

[federali]

Wait A Sec.

When you chamber a round in the Glock, and probably all other striker-fired pistols, the striker is not at full cock. It's about half way. The other half of the cocking action occurs when you pull AND HOLD the trigger rearward.

Of course, all discharges are negligent but an admission of negligence doesn't win you any money at a civil trial. So, you gotta get the jury to believe the gun went off by itself, like when it fell from your underwear holster. Unfortunately, there are enough so-called gun experts who, for a fee, will swear that a gun can load itself and fire.