How would you survive this scenario?

[flop-shank]

... I'd still question WHY LE would be breaking down my door...

As mentioned earlier in this thread, because they're mistaken and think it's someone else's house, or that someone they are looking for is living there, even if they aren't. Then there's the flip side, in which case the home invaders aren't even cops, despite yelling "POLICE".

As for me, whoever smashes down my door at 2:00 a.m. had better be prepared for plenty of much needed buckshot in their life regardless of who they are. I abhor the thought of shooting it out with friendlies, but in such a no knock scenario, they would do us all a huge favor by coming up with a better plan such as staking me out and pulling me over while I'm driving, or executing the warrant while I'm at work.

All that said, the thought of harming law enforcement is frightening and downright nauseating.

 

[David Sinko]

I far greater concern of mine has always been our ridiculous 911 policing system. I waste about half of my time going to accidental 911 calls (such as kids playing with the phone in the middle of the night) and malfunctioning alarms. We respond to every one of these calls, even if it's a busy Friday night and the call has been holding for over three hours. And I am not making this up. My favorite line has become "Hi. Did you call 911 three hours ago?" Anyway, suppose you're sleeping in the middle of the night and we find your front door unlocked. We have to go in. It creates the same kind of situation, if not one that is even more common. I have always felt that there is a very high disaster factor here for all parties concerned.

Dave Sinko

 

[Strato]

As mentioned earlier in this thread, because they're mistaken and think it's someone else's house, or that someone they are looking for is living there, even if they aren't. Then there's the flip side, in which case the home invaders aren't even cops, despite yelling "POLICE".

Yes Thank you. That's my point exactly. It's a double edged sword. It has nothing to do with "WHY" A criminal home invader would want to put that doubt in your head for even a second to cause hesitation. If for what ever reason it is LE there would likely be more than a couple heavily armed highly trained officers just following orders. If you fire a shot or even look like you're gonna fire a shot it's doubtful it would even matter anymore.

 

[flop-shank]

Anyway, suppose you're sleeping in the middle of the night and we find your front door unlocked. We have to go in. It creates the same kind of situation, if not one that is even more common. I have always felt that there is a very high disaster factor here for all parties concerned.

Dave, I almost always check the doors just before bed (we always keep them locked). Your creepy scenario is incentive for me to never go slack and not do so. Shooting it out with the cops is a no win scenario for each side and would be nothing short of a tragedy. I intend to do my part to prevent such fratricide. Thank you for posting.

 

[cowart]

ummm if they bust down my door then they are at the mercy of my pit bull

It takes about 1 or 2 rounds and 1 second of time to eliminate your pit bull. This applies equally to both LEOs and bad guys.

 

[cmort666]

I've had enough documented death threats from National Alliance types that if somebody kicks in my door, I'm on "launch on warning" mode. I don't commit crimes or knowingly associate with people who do. I've never used, much less manufactured or sold illegal drugs. The ONLY people I expect to come busting in are on the opposite side of the law from me. That means that if you do it, I have every reason to believe you mean to kill me. Even the dumbest, meth addled "White Nationalist" can yell "Police, search warrant!"

If through negligence, the cops end up kicking my door in, somebody's almost guaranteed to die. That's why they need to take "dynamic entries" much more seriously than some of them seem to. If you're not 110% CERTAIN, don't do it.

 

[Kanewpadle]

I've had enough documented death threats from National Alliance types that if somebody kicks in my door, I'm on "launch on warning" mode. I don't commit crimes or knowingly associate with people who do. I've never used, much less manufactured or sold illegal drugs. The ONLY people I expect to come busting in are on the opposite side of the law from me. That means that if you do it, I have every reason to believe you mean to kill me. Even the dumbest, meth addled "White Nationalist" can yell "Police, search warrant!"

If through negligence, the cops end up kicking my door in, somebody's almost guaranteed to die. That's why they need to take "dynamic entries" much more seriously than some of them seem to. If you're not 110% CERTAIN, don't do it.

Good post. I think it all boils down to that.

 

[sheriffoconee]

to answer the question the OP posed...the simple answer is, you may not survive it...
if they are bad guys, and determined and well armed, your reactions may not be enough to stop it....even if you get one or two of them....
If they are cops at the wrong door, same thing....and if you get them before they get you, or you do live through it, then the DA is gonna do his best to put you in prison for life, if he doesn't ask for the needle....
no matter what, you life will no longer be the same, no matter how it ends that night.....

 

[Kanewpadle]

to answer the question the OP posed...the simple answer is, you may not survive it...
if they are bad guys, and determined and well armed, your reactions may not be enough to stop it....even if you get one or two of them....
If they are cops at the wrong door, same thing....and if you get them before they get you, or you do live through it, then the DA is gonna do his best to put you in prison for life, if he doesn't ask for the needle....
no matter what, you life will no longer be the same, no matter how it ends that night.....

Good thought. I was just thinking the same thing. Cops or bad guys, I don't think life would ever be the same. And true one may or may not survive. But I would take as many with me as I could. But this very point is one reason I have made it extremely difficult for anyone to get into my house quickly. Short of driving a SWAT truck through the front door, it will take several minutes if not more to gain entry. And while they are doing so I will have taken a defense position with plenty of cover and firepower. Hopefully if they are LEO they will take a second to identify themselves before shooting.

 

[cmort666]

Good thought. I was just thinking the same thing. Cops or bad guys, I don't think life would ever be the same. And true one may or may not survive. But I would take as many with me as I could. But this very point is one reason I have made it extremely difficult for anyone to get into my house quickly. Short of driving a SWAT truck through the front door, it will take several minutes if not more to gain entry. And while they are doing so I will have taken a defense position with plenty of cover and firepower. Hopefully if they are LEO they will take a second to identify themselves before shooting.

These things seem to be wildly erratic.

Some of them are effectively planned like a military operation with intel checked and rechecked and multiple rehearsals.

Others are just insane goatropes, characterized by negligence, recklessness and an apparent feeling that no matter what they do to a citizen, they won't be held accountable.

There's NO excuse for a "wrong address" raid. If you have SO little regard for human life (your own and the citizen's) that you can't even bother to make sure you're at the right place, looking for the right people, if somebody gets killed, you need to get the felony murder rule rammed up your fourth point of contact, good and hard.

Saying these things are "rare" is cold comfort to the person who has his home devastated and their life endangered. In all too many instances, the victims of "wrong address" raids are treated with astonishing callousness.

 

[Kanewpadle]

Understood and agreed.

I also have no reason for the local coppers to knock on my door. I know several of them through dealings at work. They know that they can find me other than at home.

I don't worry about home invasions too much anyway. A very small percentage of the local home invasions are random. Most of them are drug dealers or gang members ripping each other off. They can shoot each all they want.

 

[sheriffoconee]

I have been a cop all my life, for 34 years I have worked in law enforcement....
I HATE NO KNOCK WARRANTS.......
That is not to say that I have not approved no knocks....but I am VERY hard to convince....
In my agency, no knocks are very, very difficult to obtain...not by the Judges, but by US....
EVERY NK has to be approved by the Chief Deputy and me...period...
before the affidavit is requested, the CD and I, along with the deputies assigned, the SRT commander, and all other affected supervisors....
we have to be convinced that the NK is the ONLY viable option to execute the warrant....stealth, guile, other options have to be eliminated, not just rejected, as a path into the dwelling or other building to be searched....
destruction of evidence is NOT a consideration...the ONLY consideration is for the preservation of life, ours OR the bad guys....
with all that said, YES, we have done them....I am always on scene, or my CD is, and we reserve the right to the very end not to enable the NK provision, as do any members of the team making the entry.
Everyone is allowed to voice their opinions, and offer solutions other than the NK....

as much as I hate them, sometimes, their ain't no other option..
we have ways of making our presence known as soon as entry as made, by use of flashing blue lights and loudspeaker announcements...some of that information I prefer to keep to myself....but the LAST thing we want to do is hurt anyone...or to get hurt....

No knocks suck....

 

[Kanewpadle]

I have been a cop all my life, for 34 years I have worked in law enforcement....
I HATE NO KNOCK WARRANTS.......
That is not to say that I have not approved no knocks....but I am VERY hard to convince....
In my agency, no knocks are very, very difficult to obtain...not by the Judges, but by US....
EVERY NK has to be approved by the Chief Deputy and me...period...
before the affidavit is requested, the CD and I, along with the deputies assigned, the SRT commander, and all other affected supervisors....
we have to be convinced that the NK is the ONLY viable option to execute the warrant....stealth, guile, other options have to be eliminated, not just rejected, as a path into the dwelling or other building to be searched....
destruction of evidence is NOT a consideration...the ONLY consideration is for the preservation of life, ours OR the bad guys....
with all that said, YES, we have done them....I am always on scene, or my CD is, and we reserve the right to the very end not to enable the NK provision, as do any members of the team making the entry.
Everyone is allowed to voice their opinions, and offer solutions other than the NK....

as much as I hate them, sometimes, their ain't no other option..
we have ways of making our presence known as soon as entry as made, by use of flashing blue lights and loudspeaker announcements...some of that information I prefer to keep to myself....but the LAST thing we want to do is hurt anyone...or to get hurt....

No knocks suck....

Your not alone.

Talked to a freind who is a commander at neighboring city PD. He said the same thing you did. But added a few "colorful" words.

 

[sheriffoconee]

I don't want to get banned, so I cleaned it up, but trust me, my hatred of NK's is WELL KNOWN among my employees, they hate to bring them to me for approval, cause they KNOW it's gonna be a LONG day

 

[cmort666]

I have been a cop all my life, for 34 years I have worked in law enforcement....
I HATE NO KNOCK WARRANTS.......

They may indeed be necessary in certain VERY specific instances.

Unfortunately, some departments appear to view them in quite literally a frivolous way. When they go horribly wrong, they variously treat the victims with indifference, contempt and callousness, then hide behind the "ongoing investigation" canard.

This isn't a game. People's lives are at stake, and not just the victim's. Unfortunately, some departments treat it as a game in which if you screw up it's "no harm, no foul".

 

[G.T. Smith]

We all know how when LEOs storm someone's house on a no knock warrant the instant the battering ram hits the door they verbally identify themselves as LEOs. Obviously you quickly relenquish your weapon or leave it in the nightstand to avoid being instantly perforated. What if one or more home invaders falsely identified themselves as LEOs upon entering to throw you off your defense plan? By the time you realize they're not LEOs if they haven't killed you already, how would you regain your defensive position?

I have given LEO's absolutely no reason to crash through my doors, day or night. I have no warrants, and I have never even had a speeding ticket. I live about 3 miles into the woods, so mistaken address would be a lie. I have no close neighbors and the ones in this area are just plain old hillbillys like myself. Honest, hard working, some retired. Nothing happening out here, so I'm afraid that anybody coming through my door without being invited in or without a visible verification of authority, will be shot. The odds are that anybody invading my house is there for trouble no matter who they say they are. Surely the police wouldn't break my door down and enter my home without a real good reason, and I have given them none. Nor do I plan on it. Hopefully that scenario will never be played out here.

 

[Strato]

I have given LEO's absolutely no reason to crash through my doors, day or night. I have no warrants, and I have never even had a speeding ticket. I live about 3 miles into the woods, so mistaken address would be a lie. I have no close neighbors and the ones in this area are just plain old hillbillys like myself. Honest, hard working, some retired. Nothing happening out here, so I'm afraid that anybody coming through my door without being invited in or without a visible verification of authority, will be shot. The odds are that anybody invading my house is there for trouble no matter who they say they are. Surely the police wouldn't break my door down and enter my home without a real good reason, and I have given them none. Nor do I plan on it. Hopefully that scenario will never be played out here.

Hopefully none of us will ever have to deal with it.

 

[sipowicz]

I hate No Knocks also..so I always ring the bell.

 

[Crazy K38]

It takes about 1 or 2 rounds and 1 second of time to eliminate your pit bull. This applies equally to both LEOs and bad guys.

but that one second gives me time to get my gun second two is getting ready to nail their ass

 

[jimmyj]

Hi:
Many, many years ago I was present at a "No Knock" search warrent.
(Outer Perimeter) when the shotgun armed"Cowboys" kicked in the door.
Three didn't quite get in the door. Suspect, armed with a S&W Model 39, fired low and hit all three in the groin area. I never liked "No Knocks".
There is always the chance of the wrong house, address, or innocents visiting.
Jimmy