senecaap
Member
I'd turn on the light and scare them with my back and chest hair....ok dreadlocks, and while they were gouging their eyes out, I'd call the real police.
How would you survive this scenario?
- Thread starter Strato
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44forever
Member
Anyone who shoots my dogs has resigned from
the human race. Open season on varmits.
the human race. Open season on varmits.
While I have served warrants during the night, I have never been on a NK detail and do not want to be. Anyway, I am too old for that sort of work now. I get winded just serving a subpoena.
Recently there was a small group in a van that played cops in real life doing no knock home invasions while ripping off the occupants. They entered the wrong house after a few invasions and now there are two less still breathing and two more occupying the state grey bar motel for the next several years. What the real cops could not locate, a 72 yr old homeowner stopped.
Recently there was a small group in a van that played cops in real life doing no knock home invasions while ripping off the occupants. They entered the wrong house after a few invasions and now there are two less still breathing and two more occupying the state grey bar motel for the next several years. What the real cops could not locate, a 72 yr old homeowner stopped.
cmj8591
Member
No knock warrants are difficult to obtain here also. The warrant must particularly describe the place to be searched and be approved by a neutral magistrate so the chance of kicking in the wrong door is very remote. I’m not going to say it can’t happen or has never happened but you have a better chance of hitting the lotto than having the cops kick in your door by mistake. If you are worried about this happening to you, there are two things you might want to think about changing: 1. your life style and 2. where you live!
The other thing that you might want to consider is that if the SWAT team busts into your house, for whatever reason, and you present yourself with gun in hand, you are most likely going to be met with a burst of machine gun fire or a load of 00 buck or both. No matter how proficient you might think you are, unless you happen to have your SEAL team over for a slumber party, you are not going to win the encounter.
The other thing that you might want to consider is that if the SWAT team busts into your house, for whatever reason, and you present yourself with gun in hand, you are most likely going to be met with a burst of machine gun fire or a load of 00 buck or both. No matter how proficient you might think you are, unless you happen to have your SEAL team over for a slumber party, you are not going to win the encounter.
Exactly correct. While the wrong door has been entered in many instances, the loss of life as the home owner resisted with a firearm has been just about as common. Many times a search warrant was turned into a death warrant.
A person sleeping with a gun in a nightstand is not going to be as fast as a group of alert, armed LEOs with guns in hand.
We had two instances several years ago where the "jump out" boys entered drug houses and the dealers shot at them upon entry. In the first case, the lead man was shot. The bullet went into a seam on his vest, travelled through him, hit the other side of his vest, bounced back and went into his heart. He was dead before he hit the ground but the second officer srayed the shooter really nice with an auto weapon.
The second was only weeks later. Basically the same thing but the drug dealer shot the lead officer in the head. The shooter was promptly dispatched by a couple well placed shots.
I have always maintained that if you are in a decent area, have a clean record, a clean family record and not into a lifestyle that would create a warrant, you have virtually nothing to fear.
However, a friend of mine felt it would never happen to him. He did not know his son was a major player in the local drug scene and kept drugs in a storage room, a closet and bathroom. Sure enough, the drug boys obtained a warrant and got the drugs and the boy.
Bad guy or good guy .... if he got the jump on ya, he got the jump on ya.
If you complied, and it turns out to be a cop, your dialogue with him/them will bear this out.
If you complied, and it turns out to be a bad guy, you'll have to adapt your strategy on the fly, distractions and pattern interrupts, tell him your wallet and debit card are upstairs with your car keys (you'll see if he wants you to drive him to the nearest ATM for a $1000 max withdrawal
) .... it's right there in the nightstand and you'll go get it for him 
something like that. You'll have more options if you can manipulate his behavior, vs just looking at him like "oh s---t" **gulp**
If you complied, and it turns out to be a cop, your dialogue with him/them will bear this out.
If you complied, and it turns out to be a bad guy, you'll have to adapt your strategy on the fly, distractions and pattern interrupts, tell him your wallet and debit card are upstairs with your car keys (you'll see if he wants you to drive him to the nearest ATM for a $1000 max withdrawal
) .... it's right there in the nightstand and you'll go get it for him something like that. You'll have more options if you can manipulate his behavior, vs just looking at him like "oh s---t" **gulp**
Nite Ryder
Member
My son is a sergeant on a city police force located about 150 miles north of my town. He is on their SWAT team and was 'promoted' to the position of 'first man through the door', (promoted, according to his wife). His thoughts about police invading a home are much different than mine. Anyone can yell "police with a warrent", and the police don't have any idea how well my hearing works, that being the case, no one is going to break down my door and live. True, I may not either, but I've lived a long and fruitful life and I don't care. This is my home, not theirs, if they want to see me, they better call me on the telephone and make arrangements for a visit. I have worked for my states police department as a Trooper in the past. Our department was very careful with this kind of a search situation, knowing it was very dangerous. Anyone that is going to break down your door intends to inflict serious physical injury to you, you can meet deadly force with deadly force, just have to be able to prove you feared for your life.
Chili Vega
US Veteran, Absent Comrade
Many interesting posts on this thread. "No knocks" are pretty much unheard of in my county. Rest assured many man hours have been burnt planning, scouting and researching before the search warrant is actually initiated by my team. We will not cut corners and one of our biggest fears is not a shoot out, if you are evil, bring it, but hitting the wrong place. I have been on our tactical team since '89, a team leader since '96. I will not place Law abiding American citizens in jeopardy. We have refused to serve more than one warrant for our own agency because the intel did not pan out. We sent the warrants back to the case agents and told them to do their job. I can not vouch for anyone else, but as for me and my team this is how we feel. Kudos to the Sheriff from GA. If you are in my AO contact me and I will take you to lunch.
cmort666
Member
How'd that work out for the mayor of that town in Maryland? After they shot the dogs, they made the family members lie in their blood.
What do you think should happen to cops who raid the wrong house? And I'm not talking about the thugs who murdered Kathryn Johnston in Atlanta. I'm talking about incompetence.
It's pretty typical for departments who either screw up the address or the actual identities to basically tell the victims to kiss off. One incident was funny in a sick way. The SWAT team destroyed the front door of the [wrong] home and made the dwelling uninhabitable with CS. They left the family a bucket of cleaning supplies. I guarantee you that the kids (who were present) will NEVER see the police as "officer friendly", and for that I'm sure they will be roundly condemned.
It's amazing how many people think just because they live in a decent nieghborhood and haven't done anything to provoke a home invasion that it can't happen to them. Escaped prisoners will invade any home at random. Home invasions intended for profit usually only happen in nieghborhoods where people have money. As far as a wrong address no knock it could be as simple as a typo. In the mid nineties I was decking a roof in a very esquisite gated community about 6:30 am when a fired groundskeeper busted his way into the house next door. He shot the woman inside twice with a Saturday Night Special. She pulled a .38 from the coat closet and killed him with one in the chest. I didn't know anything was going on until the Medivac chopper about blew me off the roof. The point is it doesn't matter who you are, where you live or how you live. It can happen to anyone. Am I worried about it? No. I'm I aware? Absolutely.
GatorFarmer
Member
Eh. Another old thread I'd missed. Keep your M4, Sig 556, or whatever loaded with M955 (not M855) black tip AP ammo if you can get it. It used to only show up on the SAW belts, but is more common. It isn't sold commercially, at all, to my knowledge. Goes right through Level III rifle plates, and is hard for even many level IV plates to stop. It's the real reason for the prevalence of Level IV+ multi hit plates these days among those... who have reason to purchase such. Lots of PDs, and most BGs, don't have the budget for that.
Failing that, you want a big game rifle loaded with solids, an M1 with M2AP (black tip) OR use M193 rounds. Yes, don't use M855, the older M193 is better at going through some rifle plates, particularly low bid ones.
No rifle plates or areas without plates, and helmets, are only going to be Level IIIA armor max, proof against 9mm SMG velocity rounds and possibly the M1 carbine (as well as all shotgun projectiles), but rifle bullets are going right through.
You'll also want to keep hearing protection and a gas mask handy and make sure that you can shoot with your mask on. Gas isn't fun stuff, nor are flash bangs, but if whoever is hitting you relies on them too much, they can get sloppy.
Doors can be reinforced so that a battering ram isn't going to take them down easily.
If you don't have a decent AP option, aim for the pelvis and or the head, though there might be varying amounts of armor protection even there.
It's a good idea to have armor of your own handy with rifle plates, the best you can afford, at least an Izzy vest. Unless you're getting hit by real professionals, it is quite problematic to dig one person who's well armed and armored out. If you've got a whole family... Eh. They'll get you eventually, but it won't be pretty.
Shrug.
Failing that, you want a big game rifle loaded with solids, an M1 with M2AP (black tip) OR use M193 rounds. Yes, don't use M855, the older M193 is better at going through some rifle plates, particularly low bid ones.
No rifle plates or areas without plates, and helmets, are only going to be Level IIIA armor max, proof against 9mm SMG velocity rounds and possibly the M1 carbine (as well as all shotgun projectiles), but rifle bullets are going right through.
You'll also want to keep hearing protection and a gas mask handy and make sure that you can shoot with your mask on. Gas isn't fun stuff, nor are flash bangs, but if whoever is hitting you relies on them too much, they can get sloppy.
Doors can be reinforced so that a battering ram isn't going to take them down easily.
If you don't have a decent AP option, aim for the pelvis and or the head, though there might be varying amounts of armor protection even there.
It's a good idea to have armor of your own handy with rifle plates, the best you can afford, at least an Izzy vest. Unless you're getting hit by real professionals, it is quite problematic to dig one person who's well armed and armored out. If you've got a whole family... Eh. They'll get you eventually, but it won't be pretty.
Shrug.
Sounds like you're endorsing shooting LEO's. Not cool; rather disturbing in fact.
cmort666
Member
If you're not doing anything unlawful, why SHOULD you think it's LEOs kicking down your door without warning?
If I'm NOT a criminal, do I have to fear LEOs breaking down my door or not?
If the answer is "no", then I'm just shooting home invaders. If the answer is "yes", then there's a serious problem with law enforcement.
Pick one.
What you fail to realize, always, is that humans can make mistakes. And LEO's are not the only humans who make mistakes. Yes, LEO's have, unfortunately, entered the wrong homes. However, they don't enter...ever...with the intention of randomly shooting people they encounter.
I have never heard of a scenario in which criminals used flash bangs, gas, and tactical armor whilst engaging in any home invasion. Thus one can presume that if you are involved in an incident where flash bangs and gas are deployed against you it is, indeed, the police who are outside your door..and soon to be inside. I strongly suggest you cooperate. Kill a LEO in that instance and I guarantee you'll be dead.
You referenced the incident in Berwyn Heights, Maryland, where the local sheriff's office entered a home. Two dogs were killed then. Why that outrage? The deputies felt threatened and just like what the keyboard ninjas here aver they would do, they shot the dogs. 'Course, in your mind, only non-LEO's are without accountablility for their actions.
BTW, in the course of my LE career, and before and after, I have encountered many canines. Never shot any of them. Frankly, the thought of busting a cap in Old Yeller makes me sick.
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cmort666
Member
"Mistakes" have consequences. I've got enough documented death threats from White supremacists that I don't have the luxury of assuming that anybody who kicks in my door is the police, regardless of what they say or wear. The consequences of that sort of "mistake" by police is me ending up dead, but probably not JUST me.
When human life is at stake, you have a higher standard of care. That standard doesn't appear to be met, or even striven for in too many of these cases.
Given some of the incidents, I know about, I wouldn't be so confident, but that's beside the point. I have an expectation of being secure in my person and property if I'm not breaking the law. Your intentions when you kick down the wrong door only determine WHICH crime and civil tort you commit, not whether you've committed one.
Can you quote ANYBODY here who has claimed the right to forcibly enter somebody ELSE'S property without their permission and shoot their dogs... nevermind forcing the owners at gunpoint to then lie in the blood of the dead dogs? Those cops THEMSELVES created whatever "threat" existed in that home. I don't know about where you live, but in Ohio, I can't start beating a total stranger without provocation, then shoot him in "self-defense" when he gets the upper hand while defending himself. Nobody's going to want to hear that I made a "mistake" and thought he was somebody else.
GatorFarmer
Member
No, just how to engage targets wearing armor. The OP posits a gang impersonating LEOs, so presumably they'd equip themselves in a vaguely similar manner. (Anyone can buy armor, it isn't restricted by law in 49 of 50 states as to sale, and even the best stuff is only restricted by company policies related to sales.)
Gas - either OC or CS/CN isn't that hard to obtain either.
Whether someone shoots or doesn't shoot at people breaking the doors isn't my choice, it is theirs. But if someone is going to do something, might as well do it right.
Concealable armor pops up on homebreakers with... not regularity per se, but it happens often enough to make the news if you look for it and have a professional interest in such matters. Gas and raid jackets aren't unknown in such matters, but mainly used if you're robbing drug dealers. Such took place in Detroit during my college days, though I forget the details and the matter was never entirely resolved to whether it was Detroit PD imposters robbing dealers... or the Detroit PD robbing them. That would have been the mid 90s.
Gas has been used in foreign locales to smoke out the homeowners/homesteader by criminals. It's also been used by individuals to make other people suffer - though a felony in most states to mess around with. I personally know people who've emptied OC cannisters into the vents of other people's homes in disputes related to one thing or another. I don't condone such, but the effect isn't much different in some cases than having a proper gas cannister go off.
Raid jackets that say "Police" aren't hard to come by either come to think of it... Shrug. I don't endorse anyone doing anything and have no particular grudge against police, Federales, what not. But... if people are going to mull something over, they might as well cover all the angles.
Same as if someone tells me that the aliens steal their blood at night and they want to lay traps. I'd happily discuss how to rig a bear trap or what not. Not that I necessarily endorse or believe in their theory, but eh, if you're going to go about doing something, at least take the time to do it properly.
I've got my PMC get up sitting in the closet now - tac armor w/rifle plates, M4, knee pads, goggles, tac gloves, there's a baclava in there somewhere. I even have the PVS-14 to play ninja with and there's a couple OC grenades that I have left. If I can amass certain things out of boredom without even trying, I have to assume that someone dedicated to pursuing a criminal enterprise wouldn't have much trouble.
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Malamute
Member
I must admit to not having read all the replies.
In my neighborhood, I believe if the bonafide area LEO wanted to talk to me about anything, they'd call (which they've done once when someone out of the blue was looking for my ex and didnt have contact info for her) or e-mail me, or just stop by and talk.. I'd likely recognise a number of them if them came over. They could at least call to be sure I had coffee on.
I seriously doubt if any "pro" thugs would be operating in the area, in such a manner. Word would get around quickly if so. In any event, even if it were to happen, I'm about the least likely looking place they'd be wanting to attempt to rob.
Home invasions of any sort in this state make statewide news. They are so rare, and usually done by half-wits or wanne-be punk kids on the rare occasions they do happen. Most realise that the majority of folks have guns, and any sort of residential burglary or invasion is likely to not go well.
In my neighborhood, I believe if the bonafide area LEO wanted to talk to me about anything, they'd call (which they've done once when someone out of the blue was looking for my ex and didnt have contact info for her) or e-mail me, or just stop by and talk.. I'd likely recognise a number of them if them came over. They could at least call to be sure I had coffee on.
I seriously doubt if any "pro" thugs would be operating in the area, in such a manner. Word would get around quickly if so. In any event, even if it were to happen, I'm about the least likely looking place they'd be wanting to attempt to rob.
Home invasions of any sort in this state make statewide news. They are so rare, and usually done by half-wits or wanne-be punk kids on the rare occasions they do happen. Most realise that the majority of folks have guns, and any sort of residential burglary or invasion is likely to not go well.
grandpabear
US Veteran
Phony Police raids.
Regretfully this does happen and regardless of the Supreme Court's ruling it would still happen. Let's face it, only two types of people will yell they are "police" as they break in to your home, one is the real police and the other--well let's just say they wouldn't care what the Supreme Court decided anymore than they care that it is against the law to conduct home invasion robberies.
I propose that if you seriously concern yourself that such may happen that you should install a couple of cameras in the front of your house and a proximity alarm that rings when someone approaches. Cost is less than most pistols worth owning and it will be of more assistance than any court ruling.
If they are not the police, call 911 and go to your COVER position. TELL THEM, loudly, that you have called the police (don't rely on a cell phone--you want a wired phone at your COVER position); if your line is cut it's a good indication that they aren't police--but while police can, and frequently do, jam cell phones during a raid, they don't normally cut phone wires.
If it is the real police, open the door before they hit it. Keep your gun reasonably close (in case you err'd) but not in your hands, which you should show to the police as being empty--keep one foot behind the door to shut it if you can.
If you discover you made a mistake, slam the door, retrieve your defensive weapon, run for COVER, dial 911, and get ready... TELL THEM that you don't believe they are the police and until your call to 911 goes through you will consider them armed criminals and that they should either wait for backup or leave.
This takes planning and practice on your part. Don't send your wife or child to the door, just in case, but send them to your COVER spot. Hopefully those idiots
that show all the SWAT entries won't put this on the TV to educate the bad guys.
Regretfully this does happen and regardless of the Supreme Court's ruling it would still happen. Let's face it, only two types of people will yell they are "police" as they break in to your home, one is the real police and the other--well let's just say they wouldn't care what the Supreme Court decided anymore than they care that it is against the law to conduct home invasion robberies.
I propose that if you seriously concern yourself that such may happen that you should install a couple of cameras in the front of your house and a proximity alarm that rings when someone approaches. Cost is less than most pistols worth owning and it will be of more assistance than any court ruling.
If they are not the police, call 911 and go to your COVER position. TELL THEM, loudly, that you have called the police (don't rely on a cell phone--you want a wired phone at your COVER position); if your line is cut it's a good indication that they aren't police--but while police can, and frequently do, jam cell phones during a raid, they don't normally cut phone wires.
If it is the real police, open the door before they hit it. Keep your gun reasonably close (in case you err'd) but not in your hands, which you should show to the police as being empty--keep one foot behind the door to shut it if you can.
If you discover you made a mistake, slam the door, retrieve your defensive weapon, run for COVER, dial 911, and get ready... TELL THEM that you don't believe they are the police and until your call to 911 goes through you will consider them armed criminals and that they should either wait for backup or leave.
This takes planning and practice on your part. Don't send your wife or child to the door, just in case, but send them to your COVER spot. Hopefully those idiots
that show all the SWAT entries won't put this on the TV to educate the bad guys.I live in layers,even though i live in the country i still live in layers.I start with flood lights,an outside dog(german shepard).On both porches i have night vision camera's and have spiked plants under every window.
Starting on the inside i have a weiner dog that barks at anything,more night vision camera's,baby monitors in all the kids rooms by the windows,At each door i have first alert alarms on the door molds and they stay active unless i deactivate them to go out side.I have replaced all the kids doors with solid wood doors.
At night i keep my bedroom locked and the safe open.i keep one handgun in a holster on my shotgun shell belt,along with my shotgun.From my tv in my bedroom i can see anything that moves inside and out,day or night.
Heck when i used to live down in Huntington WV i even went so far as to tie fishing line to 2 bags of empty soda cans,so when the line was hit the bags of cans would fall and hit the porch and make a God awful noice.
I would only hope that i would never get my home invaded by Police or thugs,but if the time comes i'll be ready as will my family.
Starting on the inside i have a weiner dog that barks at anything,more night vision camera's,baby monitors in all the kids rooms by the windows,At each door i have first alert alarms on the door molds and they stay active unless i deactivate them to go out side.I have replaced all the kids doors with solid wood doors.
At night i keep my bedroom locked and the safe open.i keep one handgun in a holster on my shotgun shell belt,along with my shotgun.From my tv in my bedroom i can see anything that moves inside and out,day or night.
Heck when i used to live down in Huntington WV i even went so far as to tie fishing line to 2 bags of empty soda cans,so when the line was hit the bags of cans would fall and hit the porch and make a God awful noice.
I would only hope that i would never get my home invaded by Police or thugs,but if the time comes i'll be ready as will my family.
celticfisherman
Member
Two things have been said here that I agree with 100% and that I find disgusting.
1. Is the idea by a few on here that we should give LEO's leeway in this issue. No. Not gonna happen. This is the price you pay for piss poor performance and preparation. You bust the wrong door. Sorry.
2. The idea that LEO's can use no knocl warrants still to this day disgusts me. The first comments about this are right on. This is not a police state. Although with the stories I can tell now about a few incidents right here in my back yard call that fact into question.
The thing that also disturbs me here is that we ignored the idea of it being a legal warrant or even clean cops. With the current level of PMC type groups contracting law enforcement now we have too many people who shouldn't be allowed to bea greeter at walmart much less a cop.
Whatever happened to cops being concerned over the citizens they protect? That used to be their first concern. Unfortunately that is not the case for a large portion of them now. Not all and maybe not most. But too many.
1. Is the idea by a few on here that we should give LEO's leeway in this issue. No. Not gonna happen. This is the price you pay for piss poor performance and preparation. You bust the wrong door. Sorry.
2. The idea that LEO's can use no knocl warrants still to this day disgusts me. The first comments about this are right on. This is not a police state. Although with the stories I can tell now about a few incidents right here in my back yard call that fact into question.
The thing that also disturbs me here is that we ignored the idea of it being a legal warrant or even clean cops. With the current level of PMC type groups contracting law enforcement now we have too many people who shouldn't be allowed to bea greeter at walmart much less a cop.
Whatever happened to cops being concerned over the citizens they protect? That used to be their first concern. Unfortunately that is not the case for a large portion of them now. Not all and maybe not most. But too many.
