I need to rant

[ParadiseRoad]

Protesters are ALLOWED to crow all they want in a pre-approved area with a permit.

...having to have a permit to exercise your FIRST amendment rights is about as vile as having to have a permit to exercise any of the others...including the SECOND...how about the FOURTH..."we didn't have probable cause...but we trashed his house anyway because he didn't have a FREEDOM FROM UNREASONABLE SEARCH AND SEIZURE WITHOUT PROBABLE CAUSE PERMIT...jeez...what's next? I grew up in the Leave it to Beaver days when it was the cops and the public against the bad guys...now it's the cops against everybody that isn't one...



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[tripledipper]

Robo said "we are not born with a badge, the authority comes with the job, but when it goes away, we could be on the other side of the situation". The transition from being a LEO to Mr. is the tricky part. I have observed the difficulty that some have in accepting this change, including some family members. Your attitude will serve you well.

 

[izzwins]

The permits are not the idea of the police guys. It was established by the supreme court. For the record, I never said the use of force was justified. It just burns me up that people watch an edited video that is only seconds long and jump to conclusions without all of the information. That is the reason for me playing the devil's advocate. It would be like me only reading one out of five use of force reports on an incident and basing my review on that report.

In my department, the shot to the back of the leg with the pepperball round would be justified. The shot to the head would be disciplined.

 

[boomstick]

Boomy baby, I never arrested another police officer, but I didn't know this was about me.

Here's my perspective: You were at in-service training with your fellow officers. They laughed at the woman who was the target of less lethal force at the famous FTO or WTO or whatever it was, demonstration 6 years ago. Off-color humor and gallows humor has been part of law enforcement since time immemorial. You castigate your fellow cops on a forum where you know a good number of readers are anti-cop. In fact, I think you were pandering to the audience. ("cop bashers get in here"???).

But in 12 years you've never taken action against another cop for excessive force. And I infer from that, that despite them laughing at the woman on the video, they're not out on the street using excessive force, or you would have done something about it. What counts is what they do and don't do on the street, not the sophomoric fun they poke at an in-service training video.

 

[BlackAgnes]

boomstick--

First of all, I know Rob and he doesn't pander to anyone. He made an observation about the attitudes of some of his brother officers which reasonable people would consider inappropriate, and gave us reasons why he doesn't support their views.

I am confident that if Rob observes a fellow officer violating a citizen's constitutional rights, he will take the appropriate steps.

Understand: Rob is one of the good guys. Most cops are.

Tim

 

[boomstick]

If those were actually their "views", there would be a lot more use of force issues at his dept. Since there isn't, I think it's reasonable to believe that the officers in question know the difference between reasonable and unreasonable use of force. Mountain out of a mole hill in my opinion.

I don't think I implied that he's not "one of the good guys", just that I think he's over reacting. Just like everyone who makes a Peter Griffin/Ms. Ironbox joke about a cultural diversity training video at in-service training isn't necessarily a neaderthal woman-hating racist homophobe, every cop who jokes around or puts on a show of tough guy bravado, or goes along with the cops firing rubber bullets at protestors at an old WTO demonstration isn't "one of the bad guys".

And that's my last comment on this one.....

 

[BlackAgnes]

Boom--

I'll take my cops without any "tough guy bravado", thanks.

Attitudes affect decision-making and ultimately guide our actions.

Poor attitudes foster poor behavior. Effective policing requires community support, and Rob's worries about the very real "us vs. them" mentality tells me he understands this.

As Red Green says, "We're all in this together!"

Tim

 

[smith revolver cop]

Originally posted by BlackAgnes:
Boom--

I'll take my cops without any "tough guy bravado", thanks.

Attitudes affect decision-making and ultimately guide our actions.

Poor attitudes foster poor behavior. Effective policing requires community support, and Rob's worries about the very real "us vs. them" mentality tells me he understands this.

As Red Green says, "We're all in this together!"

Tim

+1.
Tim- well said!

 

[Wayne02]

Originally posted by RobO:
Your new video doesn't show me that she was not peaceful. My point was regarding the attitude of my co-workers, based on the information we had, making no assumptions either way. The attitude that it is ok, and that it is reasonable and necessary to shoot that woman with rubber bullets.

Typically people in an organization will behave in accordance to what they believe is important to their boss, and by observing their bosses actions and words. Sometimes it doesn't matter what is written in the policy books, it is management that sets the tone of what is acceptable behavior and what is not. In your situation does management directly support such behavior or is it more a case of not condoning such behavior (when it arises) through inaction on their part?

 

[MK]

Originally posted by Wayne02:
Typically people in an organization will behave in accordance to what they believe is important to their boss, and by observing their bosses actions and words.

I think you got pretty close on that one.
If the one in charge thinks shooting non
violent wimmens with rubber bullets is
acceptable behavior, many will begin to think
and do as the one in charge does. I don't think
most officers enter the academy with such an
attitude. It would have to be drilled in,
either by the ones in charge, or maybe other
officers that may have more time, and sort of
intimidate lesser time officers into acting a
certain way.
But what do I really know... I'm not a cop.
But I'm not a cop basher either. You'll never
see me bashing a cop on here. I did complain
about one that tailgated me like glue one day
in heavy traffic, but I don't consider that cop
bashing. I'd complain about that no matter who.
No excuse for tailgating by anyone far as I'm
concerned. Probably my #1 driver pet peeve..

 

[RobO]

1. Boomstick, you are a valuable member of this forum, I appreciate differing perspectives. And just to make sure you don't misunderstand me, "Boom baby" was a term of fraternal affection, not to be interpreted as derogatory.

2. The use of the (call out) WAS to garner interest in a lively discussion. No intention of a general cop bashing, OBVIOUSLY.

3. We didn't actually hash out the issues of the video, the point of showing it to us was to show that we, as officers, never know when we are being recorded, and we should act appropriately at all times.

4. I was disturbed by not the joking, but the actual opinions. (ie. - who here thinks they were justified, raise your hand?) I'm not calling anyone in the room a bad cop, but I am concerned of the mind set that may form when one distinguishes themselves a separate class of people, just because of their authority bestowed by their employment. Same goes for elected officials, which to me seems a far worse problem.

5. We don't get many large protests here in the snowbelt, so I don't get to see my fellow officers react to a peaceful assembly. Usually a large disturbance may spring up when a joyful public celebration like Juneteenth breaks down because of shootings, stabbings, criminal damage and mayhem.

 

[marine2541]

Sorry,BUT all facts necessary to take sides are not presented here. I think police under this kind of stress should be given the consideration of innocence until proven guilty. Why was the lady lawyer arrested after the incident?

 

[RobO]

When there is video of force being used unnecessarily? in this case, it seems pretty well established that the woman was not acting as a threat. At All. No, I am not calling guilty, in our judicial process, I do consider all to be innocent until the system sorts out the guilt or innocence. But with the aforementioned evidence, acusations can be made. That is essentially what a court case, with affadavits, police reports and criminal informations/complaints are. Or a traffic ticket, its a simplified complaint or accusation, based on evidence and/or direct personal knowledge of the officer.
As I disagree with the level of force used on the woman, what was more upsetting was the way my fellow officers disagreed with me. Almost as if they "turned" on me. Like I didn't agree with them, so I am not going to be worthy of their trust. THAT pissed me off. THAT was why I was upset and felt compelled to rant to my internet friends. Thanks for being here for me.

 

[gruntsrus]

I'll just blurt out some basic data I found, and can remember..

a.) Excessive use of force is the result of a lack of proper training; Evidenced in the lack of policy/procedure/follow through in the U.S.. It shows up in the psychology of the Depts. lacking said training, as shown in the video the Dade Cty. Sheriff would rather you had NOT seen, and in their actions.

b.) In a study of 100 court cases where officers were found "Guilty" of Excessive Force, and the resulting lawsuit cost their City/Dept. $100K or more, only 2 officers were subjected to some sort of discipline.

c.) In the U.S. Los Angeles Cty. still leads the nation in Excessive Force lawsuits. In 1991 L.A. County paid out $11 Million for those lawsuits just for excessive force.

The "true context" of the video is irrelevant. If the lady lawyer had done something illegal or had been provoking the police earlier, she should have been detained at that point; shooting her in the back while she was walking away is BEGGING for a lawsuit. Going for a headshot while immobile and crouching on the ground? This is an exhibit of the Us v. Them mentality that exhibit a Police Dept.s lack of training, and that particular Dept's culture of arrogance. Very bad.

It costs lives, it costs in terms of people NOT trusting LEO, and it is costing Millions in taxpayer $$.

 

[cmort666]

Originally posted by gruntsrus:
I'll just blurt out some basic data I found, and can remember..

a.) Excessive use of force is the result of a lack of proper training

I think it's more a lack of proper supervision and discipline. If people aren't punished for misbehaving, and on the contrary, great effort is expended to ensure that they aren't punished, those who tend to misbehave will learn the appropriate lesson very quickly. In the extreme case, those individuals will prosper in that system, move up the chain of command and hire and promote like minded people.

If you don't believe that, look at the recent travails of the Catholic Church.

 

[M29since14]

I wish more cops would realize that they are citizens first, and cops by career.
I was trying to make my point by asking them if they believed the gov't was always right, and if they could ever imagine a scenario where they would protest against the government. The rubber bullet joker actually told me that he didn't believe in protesting, he would just write a letter to his congressman in the event he was unhappy.
Sounds like a whole lot of people who swore an oath to uphold the constitution need to actually read it.

I did not have time to read this entire thread but your original post says enough for me. Your attitude is a credit to you as a man and human being, as a citizen, and as an honorable police officer. It is nice to know there are a few like you still out there on the street. If only there were more.

I support any police officer competently using whatever force is absolutely necessary to insure his and the public's safety, but there is too much going on that does not fit that mold - and too little being done about it. A very dangerous thing. Additionally, there seems to be too much in the way of claims of incidents that constitute some sort of (imagined) threat to public safety, when in reality, these statements are just shams, excuses for bad behavior resulting from poor training, lack of discipline, etc. Good men having the courage to speak up, particularly in an environment like you mention, is a necessary step to turning things around - and keeping them where they should be. The "brother officer mentality" has laways been something that would be best dispensed with, since we are ALL brothers and sisters.

 

[gruntsrus]

Originally posted by cmort666:

Originally posted by gruntsrus:
I'll just blurt out some basic data I found, and can remember..

a.) Excessive use of force is the result of a lack of proper training

I think it's more a lack of proper supervision and discipline. If people aren't punished for misbehaving, and on the contrary, great effort is expended to ensure that they aren't punished, those who tend to misbehave will learn the appropriate lesson very quickly. In the extreme case, those individuals will prosper in that system, move up the chain of command and hire and promote like minded people.

If you don't believe that, look at the recent travails of the Catholic Church.

Read my post in it's entirety before picking out a snippet. The lack of training comes from a culture developed within certain LE Depts., around the World. Obviously, lack of discipline and proper supervision, by Management, would be where that culture develops from.

 

[MK]

Originally posted by RobO:

As I disagree with the level of force used on the woman, what was more upsetting was the way my fellow officers disagreed with me. Almost as if they "turned" on me. Like I didn't agree with them, so I am not going to be worthy of their trust. THAT pissed me off.

It would have chapped me. The part about you
needing to be shot with a rubber bullet
especially. That would almost prompt me to
consider giving that guy a quick front end
alignment if they said that to me.

My temper can run kind of short at times
when it comes to a smart ass. :/

Totally uncalled for if you ask me, not to
mention that they seem to consider non violent
wimmins as fair game for rubber bullets.
I wonder how they would like it if it was
their wives or daughters being shot with rubber
bullets.
I bet their attitude would do a quick U-turn.
If the woman in the video was such a problem,
all they had to do was arrest her and take her
into custody. If she hadn't done anything bad
enough to be arrested for, I sure can't see any
valid reason to shoot rubber bullets at her.
100% on your side with this dilemma.