I need to rant

[RobO]

Today, during in-service training, we were discussing the topic of "Use of Force". We watched a few videos that the presenter showed, in trying to make specific points. One video was this one: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=G63FEamhpA0

I spoke up and said that I had a problem with the force in this incident. I was shocked to hear from so many people in the class that they disagreed with me. Let's see:

Bill of Rights
Amendment I
Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof; or abridging the freedom of speech, or of the press; or the right of the people peaceably to assemble, and to petition the government for a redress of grievances.

I see a lady, a lawyer, who is being peaceful, holding a cardboard sign, who gets shot with rubber bullets in the back of her legs, then shot in her forehead while crouching down. Reasonable and necessary use of force? No freaken way! If those cops are clearing the street because of a disruption in traffic, I see several options below the level of rubber bullets that could be effective for removing her. But I could not believe the comments and ideology from my brother officers! And they were busting my chops after that, too, saying "Don't get into a use of force with RobO," and saying I should be shot with a rubber bullet.
I wish more cops would realize that they are citizens first, and cops by career.
I was trying to make my point by asking them if they believed the gov't was always right, and if they could ever imagine a scenario where they would protest against the government. The rubber bullet joker actually told me that he didn't believe in protesting, he would just write a letter to his congressman in the event he was unhappy.
Sounds like a whole lot of people who swore an oath to uphold the constitution need to actually read it.

ps- For anyone who doesn't know, I am a 12 year veteran of a medium size city police force. With my accomplishments, I don't feel I have anything to prove to anybody at work. I can't wait for the day that I never have to set foot within a city again.

 

[RobO]

Today, during in-service training, we were discussing the topic of "Use of Force". We watched a few videos that the presenter showed, in trying to make specific points. One video was this one: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=G63FEamhpA0

I spoke up and said that I had a problem with the force in this incident. I was shocked to hear from so many people in the class that they disagreed with me. Let's see:

Bill of Rights
Amendment I
Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof; or abridging the freedom of speech, or of the press; or the right of the people peaceably to assemble, and to petition the government for a redress of grievances.

I see a lady, a lawyer, who is being peaceful, holding a cardboard sign, who gets shot with rubber bullets in the back of her legs, then shot in her forehead while crouching down. Reasonable and necessary use of force? No freaken way! If those cops are clearing the street because of a disruption in traffic, I see several options below the level of rubber bullets that could be effective for removing her. But I could not believe the comments and ideology from my brother officers! And they were busting my chops after that, too, saying "Don't get into a use of force with RobO," and saying I should be shot with a rubber bullet.
I wish more cops would realize that they are citizens first, and cops by career.
I was trying to make my point by asking them if they believed the gov't was always right, and if they could ever imagine a scenario where they would protest against the government. The rubber bullet joker actually told me that he didn't believe in protesting, he would just write a letter to his congressman in the event he was unhappy.
Sounds like a whole lot of people who swore an oath to uphold the constitution need to actually read it.

ps- For anyone who doesn't know, I am a 12 year veteran of a medium size city police force. With my accomplishments, I don't feel I have anything to prove to anybody at work. I can't wait for the day that I never have to set foot within a city again.

 

[The Big D]

RobO, I am wholly with you on this one. There was absolutely no reason for "less than lethal" force being used. (Caveat: I do NOT know what, if any, commands were given. Regardless, I stand by my statement.)

I cannot comprehend under what circumstances this would be used as a positive training medium. The tactics were totally wrong given the scenario as depicted. FTR, the actions of the personnel rehashing the incident were incredibly unprofessional.

Be safe.

 

[normamag]

It's called arrogance

 

[oldRoger]

RobO;
+1 here
I hope that more intelligence is used, should some of us here on the forum find it necessary to peacefully protest in DC (Million Gun Owner March for example) or the various Tea Parties taking place.
Certainly I saw nothing in the video that suggested force should be used. If there was a reason to remove her I didn't see it. More like sniping IMO.

 

[conn ak]

I think the video speaks for itself. They all had a good laugh about a woman getting shot while attempting to exercise her freedom to speak and the freedom of assembly.

 

[Firehouse]

Thanks for sticking up for the citizens you are committed to protecting. Sounds like you work along side some Gestapo wanna bees.

 

[2152hq]

Reading some of the comments attached to the video make it appear as if the woman and here group had assaulted and harrassed a group of employees attempting to enter their place of business.
Of course we have no idea if that is true or not from this video.

If the police presence is because the woman and her protest group had violated their 'protest permit' and were now refusing to leave,, I still doubt that rubber bullets were necessary.

She didn't appear to be much of a physical threat to the suited up riot squad

.
Seems they may have targeted her for some reason. Rubber bullets used to disperse crowds weren't designed for head shots.

That they felt forced to defend themselves and protect the publics safety by fireing rubber bullets at a sign carrying protester doesn't speak well for their mindset IMHO.

 

[Doug M.]

Sadly, we are our own worst enemies.

 

[Racegunner]

Originally posted by The Big D:
RobO, I am wholly with you on this one. There was absolutely no reason for "less than lethal" force being used. ...

I thought these were referred to as "less lethal" not "less than lethal" since everything from rubber bullets to bean bags has the potential to kill someone depending on range, impact area (eye socket) and physical condition of the person/target. They probably would be lawerying-up with less laughter had the woman died or been seriously wounded. Hell, people die from being tazzed, Bro! It's serious business.

 

[boomstick]

With 12 years on the job, you must have witnessed a few excessive use of force situations. How many cops have you arrested?

 

[gregintenn]

I don't have adequate information based on the video to make a desicion on whether or not the action was warranted. What I do know is that this will spawn a lawsuit that will cost taxpayers millions of dollars. I wonder if any of the guys watching the video and laughing realize thay are taxpayers as well...Or if they even care.

 

[Hunt200]

I can't wait for the day that I never have to set foot within a city again.

Amen to that!

 

[ladder13]

Rob O, YOU are a breath of fresh air. I can tell from your many posts that you are truly "one of us".

PS. 8 more to go.

 

[boomstick]

Well, as I recall, that video is at least 5 or 6 years old. So if that's the best they were able to come up with for a current in-service training class, the cops are doing pretty good. As far as the cops at IST laughing at the incident at the Free Trade Assn. demonstration: Like I said, Rob must have seen some of those guys in action on the street when they were over the top. How many have been fired or prosecuted as a result of Rob turning them in?

A little too much indignation in the original post for me.

 

[izzwins]

I know for a fact that Miami-Dade policy is to give several orders to leave the area. It is explained to the protesters what will happen. The protesters are given an escape/exit route. Their crowd control program is so effective that the Dept. of Homeland Security modeled their training after it. I have been trained by both.

In crowd control situations, normal escalation of use of force is not always practical. You can not always start at the lowest force option when you are out numbered 100 to 1 and you can't break rank. Force must also be used quickly because you usually can't escalate to deadly force if needed because of the large crowd. Instigators like her are targeted to help keep the mob from feeding off their actions.

I can not say whether or not it was justified force from a short video clip of an event that most likely lasted hours if not days. I do agree that the debriefing should have been conducted in a more professional manner and have used this video myself in my training classes. I don't usually endorse or judge any other department's policies and procedures especially in a different state with different standards. I only use this video to teach professionalism or lack thereof.

 

[10-12]

I have faced demonstrators and it can be frightening but this apparent misuse of authority is even more so.

When I lived in Broward County the sheriff was not only anti first amendment, he was anti second amendment. It figures.

Bill

 

[MKT]

Passive resistance like that depicted is a prime example of when to use OC. The stuff we're carrying now is the 10% solution and it sprays thick, not just a fine mist like the old stuff. The new stuff sticks around a while

 

[RobO]

Rob must have seen some of those guys in action on the street when they were over the top. How many have been fired or prosecuted as a result of Rob turning them in?

A little too much indignation in the original post for me.

You are unbelievable, Boomstick.

 

[TNDixieGirl]

A little too much indignation in the original post for me.

Then move on to another thread boom. It's that easy.

 

[redlevel]

Originally posted by TNDixieGirl:

A little too much indignation in the original post for me.

Then move on to another thread boom. It's that easy.

Ain't it the truth!

 

[bk43]

Originally posted by boomstick:
A little too much indignation in the original post for me.

In another life, years ago, I managed our training department. We used to seek out clips like this that skated on the edge and prompted a class to really think through the complexities inherent in a given situation. Rob did that and passes with flying colors. You, not so much.

Bob

 

[Hermann]

Originally posted by conn ak:
I think the video speaks for itself. They all had a good laugh about a woman getting shot while attempting to exercise her freedom to speak and the freedom of assembly.

SO TRUE!
.. and then they wonder why people don´t like ´em ...

 

[38-44HD45]

Originally posted by RobO:


Sounds like a whole lot of people who swore an oath to uphold the constitution need to actually read it.

Bears repeating, over, and over, and over....

 

[smith revolver cop]

RobO-
With you 100%. When I look at the debriefing viedo, I see a supervisor that should be immediately demoted and removed from street duties pending his dismissal, and an officer who takes credit for the shot that should be fired. (Yes, even rubber bullets are "shots.") I've got 28+ years on the job, and it's idiots like this that set the rest of us back decades in our "professional" image.

 

[smith revolver cop]

I can not say whether or not it was justified force from a short video clip of an event that most likely lasted hours if not days.

Doesn't matter what happened days or hours before or after. Not one little bit. At the time you fire the rubber bullet (or use any force), you have to justify at that very moment why it was necessary, appropriate, legal, justifiable, and (most importantly) ethical. Absolutely no justification existed at that moment. As I've mentioned in discussion posts before, the more "tactical" equipment you put on some cops, especially the younger "hot dogs," the lower their IQ drops.

 

[The Big D]

Originally posted by Racegunner:

Originally posted by The Big D:
RobO, I am wholly with you on this one. There was absolutely no reason for "less than lethal" force being used. ...

I thought these were referred to as "less lethal" not "less than lethal" since everything from rubber bullets to bean bags has the potential to kill someone depending on range, impact area (eye socket) and physical condition of the person/target. They probably would be lawerying-up with less laughter had the woman died or been seriously wounded. Hell, people die from being tazzed, Bro! It's serious business.

You are correct, gunner; couldn't remember the terminology. It was late. Thanks for the clarification.

Be safe.

 

[rundownfid]

Robo;
Your concern at this use of force is laudable. However, as mentioned by others I would like to see more evidence as to the context. For example, the way the video was cut and pasted together the cops in their "after action" video were caught making stupid careless statements. However, notice there was no tape from the protesters, perhaps they were simultaneously crowing about taunting the police and getting them to use excessive force. I don't know, the tape we saw was edited to make the police look bad, and, in my opinion, it did.

Still, it is disturbing that officers, not under stress and in danger, would see that tape and not think your concerns were credible. I don't know where the guilt lies vis a vis the women in the red blazer, but the police need to be at least concerned about excessive force on citizens. Again I applaud your concern.

 

[normamag]

src you do get it tactical= john wayne


jim

 

[deralte]

RobO, with you 1000%. I was involved with the riots at Ohio State (Columbus,OH) and Kent State during the Vietnam war and have seen the rubber bullets in use and they work quite well including making gonads the size of big apples. In those cases their use was well justified inasmuch as the protestors were throwing molotov cocktails, rocks and anything else they could get their hands on.