the ringo kid
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Yep, its difficult to maintain anything especially when 5,000 Majors get the pink slip.
I think we need the draft
- Thread starter vito
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Yep, its difficult to maintain anything especially when 5,000 Majors get the pink slip.
the ringo kid
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I never did like twinkies, but liked zingers until they replaced the icing with plastic.
ChattanoogaPhil
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If the guiding principle of conscription is "payback of community service", then why not force people to shovel asphalt for three years on state and federal highways? Force people to work in state and federal healthcare facilities or law enforcement... or... or ... or? Once you've established that I must pay the government with three years of my life simply because I exist, there is no limit to such rationale. No thanks.
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If the Spatans were so great, where are they now? Dead like they should have been. Military societies are police states, i.e. tyranny. The law is "serve" and "obey". Keywords like discipline and conformity. Well, NOT IN MY COUNTRY!
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Lee in Quartzsite
Member
In some of the free world countries military training is required of all citizens. Frankly I think it's not a bad idea to have an able and trained population that could defend themselves if the need arises.
[ame]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6nf1OgV449g[/ame]
[ame]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6nf1OgV449g[/ame]
OP
vito
US Veteran
Sparta defeated the supposedly superior Athenians and almost defeated the enormously larger forces of Persia. America had a stronger military, a stronger civilian community (in terms of military type skills) and a stronger democracy when we had close to universal conscription. Basic training tends to diminish one's self centeredness and marcissism.
Rocksprings
Member
Doubt 50% of todays kids can pass a drug/physical.
In 1965 LBJ upped the monthly draft call to 35,000.....that is per month. By 1968 it was close to 50,000, again per month. It didn't work then and won't work now. You can't force a free population to fight for a cause they don't believe in, or worse a government they don't trust, which is the case today.
Free population? The refugee crisis should force the
population of this country to realize how lucky we are to live
in the US. The government does compel people to do things
they don't like when it's judged to be for the common good.
Like paying taxes for example. Maybe we don't need the draft
at this time. But to lose a real war and have this country
occupied by a foreign country's representatives would be an
unthinkable nightmare. Our government absolutely must have
the right to compel people to serve should it actually become
necessary in order to preserve our population as free. It might
take harsh measures, as Stalin and Hitler demonstrated in
WW2, but consider the alternative.
I'm qualified to have an opinion about this. When I turned 18 I got a draft notice, 1A. That was 1967 and things weren't going real well for the US in Vietnam, the biggest foreign war debacle in US history. I enlisted before I was drafted even though I could have cut my service time in half if I had been drafted. You can say I avoided the draft but I did my time and served my country.
The problem with the draft is the military ends up with a lot of people who don't want to be there. I know because I was there and had to deal with it. Vietnam was a very unpopular war. Iraq wasn't much better.
From the inside looking out an all volunteer force looks better. From the outside looking in a draft looks better. I've seen it from both sides and can tell you there is huge problems with a draft. The military isn't there to raise your kids at taxpayer expense and that's what happens in a lot of cases.
All you have to do is look at all the discontent on college campuses today. These people are the same age as a draftee would be. BLM is a good example. How do you think that would go over in the military? I'll tell you. Everyone one of those folks would get a discharge, the equivalent to disciplinary expulsion in college.
The military is a good place for some but not a cross sectional slice of the general population. A volunteer, professional military is the only thing that works when the chips are down. Not everyone has military experience with a draft during a war, if you did you probably wouldn't want another one.
The problem with the draft is the military ends up with a lot of people who don't want to be there. I know because I was there and had to deal with it. Vietnam was a very unpopular war. Iraq wasn't much better.
From the inside looking out an all volunteer force looks better. From the outside looking in a draft looks better. I've seen it from both sides and can tell you there is huge problems with a draft. The military isn't there to raise your kids at taxpayer expense and that's what happens in a lot of cases.
All you have to do is look at all the discontent on college campuses today. These people are the same age as a draftee would be. BLM is a good example. How do you think that would go over in the military? I'll tell you. Everyone one of those folks would get a discharge, the equivalent to disciplinary expulsion in college.
The military is a good place for some but not a cross sectional slice of the general population. A volunteer, professional military is the only thing that works when the chips are down. Not everyone has military experience with a draft during a war, if you did you probably wouldn't want another one.
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OP
vito
US Veteran
I served from 1966 through 1990, so I have extensive experience with both the draft Army and the volunteer Army. During my year in Vietnam we had a mix of draftees and volunteers, with the larger proportion being draftees. Of course the volunteer Army was of a higher quality, and certainly more motivated to do a good job. But a draft military still worked, and when thinking about WW2, worked pretty damn well. The two problems with an all volunteer force is, first, that we cannot maintain a large enough force to meet multiple challenges worldwide, and strategically it might be an irreversible mistake to forego involvement because of the lack of numbers. Second, the all volunteer force is highly expensive. Conscription is a form of involuntary servitude, but I think it is an acceptable burden to place on a population in return for residing in this nation. We might not go all the way back to paying new conscripted Privates $78 a month as I recall was being paid when I went into the service, but likely would be only a fraction of what we have to pay to attract the all volunteer force.
If you need an infusion of people into the military send the old guys who have had military training because you get several benefits.
1. Already trained - just need an update on the weapons.
2. They are already hacked off at the federal government and want to fix things.
3. They have lived long and productive lives and still want to contribute.
4. The end result is your not sending your youth into harms way
just old guys who need alot of bathroom breaks.
In addition, if you really needed some killers for the terrorists you could go to the prisons and give the lifers and the death row population a second chance and take them to the known terrorist locations and tell them to clean house and get a pardon - only hook for the pardon is they stay in that country, permanently.
1. Already trained - just need an update on the weapons.
2. They are already hacked off at the federal government and want to fix things.
3. They have lived long and productive lives and still want to contribute.
4. The end result is your not sending your youth into harms way
just old guys who need alot of bathroom breaks.
In addition, if you really needed some killers for the terrorists you could go to the prisons and give the lifers and the death row population a second chance and take them to the known terrorist locations and tell them to clean house and get a pardon - only hook for the pardon is they stay in that country, permanently.
During Vietnam it was common for people to evade the draft. Bill Clinton did it for about 6 years and then was elected president. I know how he did it but it isn't relevant to the discussion. I personally know someone who evaded the draft and I know how he did it, it wasn't that difficult. These days you would have massive demonstrations and civil unrest if you tried to reinstitute the draft. People have civil rights these days and one of them is not doing what your gov't wants you to do. Only half the people in this country pay taxes. That would be about the rate of draft evasion in 2016 and who's going to police that, the FBI? They're pretty busy these days investigating rogue cop shootings and domestic terrorists. If congress sees a need to institute another draft they can do it. So far it hasn't been needed.
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An actual invasion or a war on the magnitude of the WWII is a complete different discussion. The thread was referring to the current and recent past and its relevance to reinstating the actual draft, not just the registration. Friendly word of advice, don't use Stalin or Hitler as examples of what free countries should do, even in the worst of situations. If one needs to revert to their methods then we have already lost.
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George Washington's army was volunteers.
In a free society, government serves the people, not the other way around. A draft pretty well defines which party is the master and which is the slave.
If our foreign adventures are so unpopular that they must be supported through conscription, which is slavery, that should be a clue as to whether or not we should be doing them.
I'm not sure that 'might makes right' and the subjugation of others are the values we should be instilling.
In a free society, government serves the people, not the other way around. A draft pretty well defines which party is the master and which is the slave.
If our foreign adventures are so unpopular that they must be supported through conscription, which is slavery, that should be a clue as to whether or not we should be doing them.
I'm not sure that 'might makes right' and the subjugation of others are the values we should be instilling.
LVSteve
Member
Montana is full of kids who cannot afford college or have no desire to go. Many of them see military service as the best way to see the rest of the world.
I was one of the last years to have a draft, my number was 320. I asked my uncle, an USAF Lieutenant who had just returned from a tour in VN if I should consider military service. He told me "God gave you a gift and you want to screw it up?"
If there is a need the services will be filled. We will also be trying to buy boats, guns and ammo from the people we are fighting as we don't make it here anymore.
I was one of the last years to have a draft, my number was 320. I asked my uncle, an USAF Lieutenant who had just returned from a tour in VN if I should consider military service. He told me "God gave you a gift and you want to screw it up?"
If there is a need the services will be filled. We will also be trying to buy boats, guns and ammo from the people we are fighting as we don't make it here anymore.
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