I told the NRA today I agree with background checks

[johngalt]

Attempting to impose background check requirements is just another example of a much bigger problem: the fundamental relationship between free citizens and their government.

The government was created by free people and has only those powers delegated to it, as specified in the Constitution. We are the masters, the government is our servant. The government does not grant us any rights. the Bill of Rights, including the 2nd, merely affirms that our rights preexist the creation of the government and may not be infringed.

The proposed background checks, including NICS, turns this upside down. It makes the government the master, and us the subject. Instead of a right that people can freely exercise, it becomes a privilege for which I must beg my master.

It relegates me to the status of subject instead of citizen.
It assumes that I am guilty, and puts the burden of proof on me to prove otherwise.

The compromisers think I should trade my liberty for slavery, for they promise my chains will be light. I reject this, I will not forfeit my liberty, and they have no authority to take it.

As for the cries of "how do we keep guns out of the wrong hands" - if it comes at the price of my liberty, nothing. Liberty means there is a risk that some will abuse it. So be it. I would much prefer to have liberty and live with that risk, than have none at all.

I see two kinds of compromisers:

1) The well meaning but gullible who doesn't understand the proper citizen/government relationship. They may actually believe that this will solve the problem, and gun control will stop here.

2) The truly evil, who are using these tragedies to push their final goal of total disarmament. They have no respect of individual liberty, self determination, or a government of limited authority serving a free people. For them, the government is omnipotent with them in control, they master, and we are their slaves.

The first group is being used as pawns by the second and are so foolish they don't understand it. They have my pity. The second group has my contempt.

 

[Kanewpadle]

The REAL problem

Gentlemen, we keep skirting the real issue here. Guns and how they are obtained are NOT the problem. PEOPLE are the problem. Our society is the problem.

If a background check could truly weed out those with dishonest intentions or mental sickness, I MIGHT submit to it. But such a thing is impossible to execute fairly. Who decides? Who makes the rules? Who administers it? What recourse do we have if we are denied? How much will it cost?

The "blanket" approach to gun control is the easy way for them to have total control. Make ALL gun owners/buyers jump through hoops. The more we give in the more hoops will be added until the hoops are so small that we can't fit through them.

Again, people and THEIR way of life make it difficult for us honest gun owners.

We have people walking around that would just as soon shoot you for $5. Or your car. Or just because you gave them a dirty look. We have people that are willing and able to use guns in a crime including stealing more guns. Many of them are career criminals. That's their job. They steal. They rob. They hurt others. Some sell drugs. They sell stolen guns and cars. For them, this way of life is normal.

A person raised and that lives in this kind of environment does not care about much. He is not concerned about gun control or background checks.

And then we have people that roam our society with mental problems. And when one of them uses a gun to commit a crime, we act surprised. In fact many of the mass shooting are committed by these people. And in most cases these people were known to have these problems and nobody cared enough to help them. And often these mentally ill reached out for help and those closet to them either didn't care or try hard enough to get them help.

Sorry for the long read but my point is, gun control or tougher background checks simply will not work. We need tougher laws that are ENFORCED with no plea bargaining, good behavior time etc....... Use a gun in a crime which includes stealing a gun? Go directly to jail for a LONG time. All gun related crimes have a minimum sentence which cannot be shortened. Use the money that would have been used for gun control to build more prisons.

And help the mentally ill. I don't know the answer but somebody needs to fix it.

Our government is focused in the wrong direction. They place the blame on us when it is they who are failing our country. And this didn't just start. Been that way for a while now.

 

[Big Fred]

I'm looking for something to prevent criminals from getting guns.


Sambuh,your statement above.

We all are looking for an answer, but none exist. The bottom line is, and you and others cannot seem to understand, that NO law or regulation, or EO will keep guns for those seeking them to do evil. I know this is said over and over, but drugs have been illegal for how long ?? And how is that working out ??

 

[cmort666]

I don't know man.

Who was it that said "give an inch, get an inch"?

Oh yeah, that was YOU, wasn't it?

And now we learn that in fact you can't name a SINGLE instance of gun owners getting ANYTHING back from anti-gunners. NOT ONE.

Let me get this straight:

We're supposed to keep giving up rights and in return we get... NOTHING?

Bernie Madoff at least paid off SOME of his customers.

What you're proposing is a straight up theft by deception.

This couldn't get any better if you claimed to be a "Nigerian prince"...

 

[sambuh]

Gentlemen, we keep skirting the real issue here. Guns and how they are obtained are NOT the problem. PEOPLE are the problem. Our society is the problem.

If a background check could truly weed out those with dishonest intentions or mental sickness, I MIGHT submit to it. But such a thing is impossible to execute fairly. Who decides? Who makes the rules? Who administers it? What recourse do we have if we are denied? How much will it cost?

The "blanket" approach to gun control is the easy way for them to have total control. Make ALL gun owners/buyers jump through hoops. The more we give in the more hoops will be added until the hoops are so small that we can't fit through them.

Again, people and THEIR way of life make it difficult for us honest gun owners.

We have people walking around that would just as soon shoot you for $5. Or your car. Or just because you gave them a dirty look. We have people that are willing and able to use guns in a crime including stealing more guns. Many of them are career criminals. That's their job. They steal. They rob. They hurt others. Some sell drugs. They sell stolen guns and cars. For them, this way of life is normal.

A person raised and that lives in this kind of environment does not care about much. He is not concerned about gun control or background checks.

And then we have people that roam our society with mental problems. And when one of them uses a gun to commit a crime, we act surprised. In fact many of the mass shooting are committed by these people. And in most cases these people were known to have these problems and nobody cared enough to help them. And often these mentally ill reached out for help and those closet to them either didn't care or try hard enough to get them help.

Sorry for the long read but my point is, gun control or tougher background checks simply will not work. We need tougher laws that are ENFORCED with no plea bargaining, good behavior time etc....... Use a gun in a crime which includes stealing a gun? Go directly to jail for a LONG time. All gun related crimes have a minimum sentence which cannot be shortened. Use the money that would have been used for gun control to build more prisons.

And help the mentally ill. I don't know the answer but somebody needs to fix it.

Our government is focused in the wrong direction. They place the blame on us when it is they who are failing our country. And this didn't just start. Been that way for a while now.

very. VERY well articulated

 

[Cavere]

Gentlemen, we keep skirting the real issue here. Guns and how they are obtained are NOT the problem. PEOPLE are the problem. Our society is the problem.

I completely agree with this. This is a societal issue. The >1% of gun owners who attain them illegally or use them for evil purposes forces the hand of the government to do something. They don't have the answer. No government has the answer. If it weren't for these people there would be no restrictions and no need for CCW/cpl regulations.

 

[sambuh]

Who was it that said "give an inch, get an inch"?

Oh yeah, that was YOU, wasn't it?

actually, i DIDNT say that... Again, unsurprisingly, I'm not sure what you are talking about.

 

[sambuh]

I'm looking for something to prevent criminals from getting guns.


Sambuh,your statement above.

We all are looking for an answer, but none exist. The bottom line is, and you and others cannot seem to understand, that NO law or regulation, or EO will keep guns for those seeking them to do evil. I know this is said over and over, but drugs have been illegal for how long ?? And how is that working out ??

I actually do understand your point. I'm not sure why that keeps getting lost.

My point is not that we can prevent all crime. In Toronto, CA where stringent gun laws exist(and let it be known I think are too strict) there 60 + murders. In a city where I live, there were 48

Of the 48, 95% of them were gun related

Of the 60 in Toronto I think 4 were with guns.

So I do in fact see your point. People will kill regardless. I am just not sure that if I see a problem with something I am ok with doing nothing about it. I am not in that place that one could say, "this is an issue but I am ok with doing nothing"

I am not saying background checks IS the answer. I have repeatedly said, I am in fact open to some other suggestion.

 

[Cavere]

Cmort666 I said that. And you obviously failed to grasp what I was getting at. You've been very vocal in saying nothing and attacking people with opinions different than yours. We could judge you in a similar manor. I will gladly take into consideration any persons opinion stated in a respectful and intelligent fashion. But your rage driven posts only brings ammo to the anti crowd.

I truly believe that one of the biggest weaknesses of the pro gun movement is how many people get overly animated and make the group as a whole unintelligent.

 

[V-35]

hahahahaha double woooooooow.

SO, How is the partying going on with yours and the Sara Brady camp.
These must be Fabulious times for your and Sara's organizations. I can just see you grinning ear to ear as you are telling Sara how you are messing with the mind of those "Evil Gun People" on the S&W FORUM.

Thing is, you have even Less creditablity than The Mall Ninjas. Too bad your cover was blown.

You and Benedict Arnold have a Lot in common.

Art

 

[cmort666]

In your eyes, my admittance of that being a problem and me saying something should be done(what I'm not sure a stringent background check process is an idea.) to you means I'm an anti gun liberal.

What a coincidence.

I'm a pro-gun liberal.

30+ years of experience have shown me that most movement anti-gunners are authoritarians (if not outright fascists) rather than liberals.

They're the ones who have at various times said (sometimes in my presence):

1. Gun BOOKS should be BANNED.
2. Metal working tools should be licensed (to prevent private gun manufacture).
3. The NRA should be BANNED.
4. Gun owners should be put in "camps".
5. The Holocaust "wasn't necessarily a BAD thing".
6. Women shouldn't have guns because they'll "mistake men for rapists" and shoot them.
7. It's more traumatic for a woman to shoot a rapist than to be raped.
8. "<insert race here> shouldn't be allowed to have guns."

"Liberal"??? Compared to whom? Efrain Rios-Montt, Roberto D'Aubuisson and Alfredo Stroessner?

 

[sambuh]

Cmort666 I said that. And you obviously failed to grasp what I was getting at. You've been very vocal in saying nothing and attacking people with opinions different than yours. We could judge you in a similar manor. I will gladly take into consideration any persons opinion stated in a respectful and intelligent fashion. But your rage driven posts only brings ammo to the anti crowd.

I truly believe that one of the biggest weaknesses of the pro gun movement is how many people get overly animated and make the group as a whole unintelligent.

This times by like a bazillion

 

[sambuh]

What a coincidence.

I'm a pro-gun liberal.

30+ years of experience have shown me that most movement anti-gunners are authoritarians (if not outright fascists) rather than liberals.

They're the ones who have at various times said (sometimes in my presence):

1. Gun BOOKS should be BANNED.
2. Metal working tools should be licensed (to prevent private gun manufacture).
3. The NRA should be BANNED.
4. Gun owners should be put in "camps".
5. The Holocaust "wasn't necessarily a BAD thing".
6. Women shouldn't have guns because they'll "mistake men for rapists" and shoot them.
7. It's more traumatic for a woman to shoot a rapist than to be raped.
8. "<insert race here> shouldn't be allowed to have guns."

"Liberal"??? Compared to whom? Efrain Rios-Montt, Roberto D'Aubuisson and Alfredo Stroessner?

Fantastic. I'm a pro gun ever so slightly leaning to the right moderate. Glad to meet ya!

 

[cmort666]

Cmort666 I said that. And you obviously failed to grasp what I was getting at.

I know exactly what you were "getting at". You want gun owners to give up everything in return for... NOTHING.

But hey, prove me wrong. Exactly WHAT restrictions have anti-gunners removed in return for concessions by gun owners?

Oh yeah... NONE.

But hey, I give you credit for owning that bit of three card monty...

 

[cmort666]

This times by like a bazillion

That "weakness" is a weakness in the same sense as the U.S. Navy's robust replacement pilot program during WWII.

It's a weakness for the OTHER side.

The only "rage" is from anti-gunners who don't receive the fawning submission they demand.

If you think you're mad now, you haven't seen anything yet.

 

[cmort666]

Why are ya'll fooling with this dude?

Nobody thinks they're going to change his mind. He has an agenda.

You can NEVER let them go unrefuted in a firearms related venue as silence by us is trumpeted as agreement by them.

Disinformation is never countered by silence. It has to be slapped down with truth.

 

[DJINCO]

Has the anti-gun left finally figured out the best way to dismantle the NRA is from the inside?

This is like the story of cooking a frog slowly in a pot; gradually turning up the temperature; before the frog realizes, he is cooked.

 

[cmort666]

Has the anti-gun left finally figured out the best way to dismantle the NRA is from the inside?

They've been trying this tactic since the days of the contemptible "National Firearms Association" (N.F.A.) in the 1990s.

What you're seeing now is the rotting corpse of the similar "American Hunters and Shooters Association" (A.H.S.A.), trying the same laughable grift.

The anti-gun Taliban always tries to bamboozle the gun owning public with false flag operations like N.F.A. and A.H.S.A. They always fail. And they always come back for another drubbing.

To paraphrase the punchline from an hilarious (and forum inappropriate) joke, "I don't think they're coming here to hunt..."

 

[Faulkner]

Imagine how low the divorce rate would be if we had background checks for spouses....

Personally, I think some people should have to get a license to breed. I want to be on the committee that decides who gets a license, we would eventually cut down on generation after generation of welfare families.

 

[jaykellogg]

Hahaha wow.

I'm beginning to see the problem here... As soon as you label a problem left or right you can forget solving it. The left could say the sky is blue and the right would absolutely lose their mind. and then those of us left in the middle are stuck scratching our heads.

Alright well I tried. To the OP you're not alone. I believe sensible action can be had. And should be... As does the MANY others. I'm going to stop trying to understand and go back to posting about how I enjoy shooting. Good talk guys... Well most of you anyways.

I am not sure how long you have been watching the struggle over guns, but I am 67. I lived through JFK's assassination, the shooting of Ronald Reagan. I have heard most of it and seen most of it. Rifles are not used often in crime, but here we are trying to ban certain types of rifles. I have seen anti gun people trying to ban short barreled handguns. Do I believe anything the anti gun people say? The answer is "no". During the Clinton administration a sweeping gun bill was passed that had zero effect on crime. Now people want to put it back in effect.

Many folks here have pointed out "problems" with background checks. I have pointed some out. If the states want to do it, I will live with it. I am afraid I do not trust the Feds to do it and do it right.