Identifying this .357, Story behind the revolver

[DCWilson]

Now i'm really scared.. i need to know for sure whats going on because i do not want to lose this family piece, it means a great deal to me and my family.
Anyone positively sure if this is an illegal weapon?

Abraded serial numbers can be legally restored under certain circumstances. This is a discussion we have on the forum from time to time, and I never remember exactly what the protocol is. But IF the full serial number is no longer marked on the butt, you would need to be able to recover it from some other part of the gun. Since the barrel and cylinder are not original, you can't use them. If you can find the number on the crane after you move the cylinder out of the way (or rotate it so you can look through one of the chambers), that would probably be enough to warrant restamping it on the butt.

Pull those stocks and make a complete inventory of all stampings and markings on the gun. That's your first step. You don't need to pull the sideplate. There are no numbers inside that would bear on the serial number question.

 

[purkle]

Purkle, I don't know if you took Lee's point about the possible cylinder modification. If that is a cylinder from a .38/44 (as seems likely) and it hasn't had its chambers lengthened to accommodate the .357 Magnum round, then the gun is functionally a .38 Special regardless of what it says on the side of the barrel.

SP is correct that a gun needs a full serial number on its frame to be legal. As you inventory all the markings on the gun, you might also want to pull those stocks and see what other marks there might be on the frame.

I realize that just because it says .357 mag does not mean that this is true. I have no idea what bullets fit it but hopefully the guy will be able to tell me when i get it back.
I find it odd that the serial could have been taken off as the numbers 798 on it take up the Entire area of the bottom there. If there where any more numbers to the 798 they could only have fit on the Grips themselves as there is no room before the 7 or after the 9.

I appreciate your interest in my revolver, even if it is a parts gun this piece has exceptional history through my family and has been seen by Many a pioneer in its time.

I cant wait to get it back and find out what cylinder it is, if it matches any other part of the revolver.

My father (Gwen's son) is going to be thrilled when i come back with all this information you guys and others at thefiringline.com have provided me with

 

[purkle]

Abraded serial numbers can be legally restored under certain circumstances. This is a discussion we have on the forum from time to time, and I never remember exactly what the protocol is. But IF the full serial number is no longer marked on the butt, you would need to be able to recover it from some other part of the gun. Since the barrel and cylinder are not original, you can't use them. If you can find the number on the crane after you move the cylinder out of the way (or rotate it so you can look through one of the chambers), that would probably be enough to warrant restamping it on the butt.

Pull those stocks and make a complete inventory of all stampings and markings on the gun. That's your first step. You don't need to pull the sideplate. There are no numbers inside that would bear on the serial number question.

Once i get it back i will proceed with everything, i wish i had done everything before i gave it to Brian but i'm not experienced with these sorts of things.

I appreciate you and everyone taking the time to help a complete stranger, thanks a lot.

I will ask my father if he can remember anymore details about Nana and this pistol, if he ever seen her use it, where she got it.. any stories involved with it, if he ever used it etc etc..

never thought i'd be so excited about a firearm

 

[purkle]

if i can sort everything out with this revolver i plan on making a presentation of the revolver, facts about it, where pieces came from, with pictures of Nana and present this during one of our big family gatherings we have every Christmas and thanksgiving.

I know Nana would have liked that and i'm sure Dad will be ever so pleased.

 

[handejector]

the numbers 798 on it take up the Entire area of the bottom there. If there where any more numbers to the 798 they could only have fit on the Grips themselves as there is no room before the 7 or after the 9.

The number was in two lines if it was longer than three digits.
Here is a pic of #2621 that will show you how a 1917 was marked.

 

[purkle]

The number was in two lines if it was longer than three digits.
Here is a pic of #2621 that will show you how a 1917 was marked.

The bottom of mine is NOTHING like that one at all

there is no loop for a ring, its a solid piece that runs the bottom between the grips, at the very end are those numbers and thats it.
Here is a picture of the actual revolver i have, i have not posted it as it is very blurry, but here is what it looks like. If you held the pistol in your hand with the barrel pointing directly at you, at the bottom edge it just says "798"
http://purkle.googlepages.com/gwen-wesson8.jpg <-- This is my revolver

Here is the **example** of Where the Numbers are
http://purkle.googlepages.com/Gwen-wesson798.JPG <-- this is NOT my revolver


hope this helps, sorry if my reply seemed a bit short tempered =)

 

[45Wheelgun]

The bottom of mine is NOTHING like that one at all

Maybe not now, but at one point it probably did.

Someone likely filled in the lanyard hole and polished off all the other markings except the ones you see now. Imagine that had been done to the revolver pictured above, you would end up with a smooth surface with only "621" at the edge of the grip frame, just like yours.

 

[purkle]

Maybe not now, but at one point it probably did.

Someone likely filled in the lanyard hole and polished off all the other markings except the ones you see now. Imagine that had been done to the revolver pictured above, you would end up with a smooth surface with only "621" at the edge of the grip frame, just like yours.

i'm curious then.. If there where numbers above the 798 that where polished off they would have Had to take the 798 part with it as the surface is Level unless the numbers and ring above it where raised off the surface..
I just dont see how they could have taken off the ring and the other numbers and leave 798 on there without some kind of evidence.. Unless they Added metal to it somehow.

 

[Art Doc]

Purkle- Originally that gun had a hole for the ring. It's been filled and polished to make it disappear.

I would get a good magnifying glass and try to see if the number can be made out at all. It looks thoroughly polished off so I doubt this will work. If you can make out the remains of the number then write that down and keep it. If not... then technically the gun is illegal.

If it were me in this situation, knowing that the number was foolishly but innocently removed long ago, I would maintain that the serial is 798 and if anyone asked I would assure them THAT'S the original and complete serial number.

Yes, I would be lying. I've done it before and I'm quite good at it.

 

[purkle]

If it were me in this situation, knowing that the number was foolishly but innocently removed long ago, I would maintain that the serial is 798 and if anyone asked I would assure them THAT'S the original and complete serial number.

Yes, I would be lying. I've done it before and I'm quite good at it.

Sax is there any other way to retrieve a serial number for the frame? Bleh i want to get this professionally looked at but now i dont know if i want to show it to anyone

 

[JSR III]

It is possible that the original serial number for this 1917 was 798 and that after grinding off all of the other wording including the number and filling in the lanyard hole, the gunsmith restamped it with the 798 to keep it legal.

Regardless of what the real story is, and that may never be found out, someone went to a great deal of trouble to make up this gun. Milling out for the rear sight was not done by bubba and his Walmart dremel tool. Changing out the pinned barrel and installing the new one with the same rolled head type pin was also not done by just anyone.

As Lee points out, the stamping up by the hammer is for Gilbert H. Stewart and his stamp only appears on the first 42,000 or so guns. So it is possible that this was number 798. I have one in the 55,000 range and one in the 59,000 range and they both have the flamming bomb instead of the GHS.

The mystery continues.

 

[walnutred]

This revolver has been in your family for over 50 years. If it was mine I'd say the serial number is 798 and leave it at that. Unless someone comes up with another 1917 with that serial number who can prove different?

Serial numbers were not even required when the alterations were made. For all practical purposes that serial number IS 798. In my opinion anyway.

 

[purkle]

It is possible that the original serial number for this 1917 was 798 and that after grinding off all of the other wording including the number and filling in the lanyard hole, the gunsmith restamped it with the 798 to keep it legal.

Regardless of what the real story is, and that may never be found out, someone went to a great deal of trouble to make up this gun. Milling out for the rear sight was not done by bubba and his Walmart dremel tool. Changing out the pinned barrel and installing the new one with the same rolled head type pin was also not done by just anyone.

As Lee points out, the stamping up by the hammer is for Gilbert H. Stewart and his stamp only appears on the first 42,000 or so guns. So it is possible that this was number 798. I have one in the 55,000 range and one in the 59,000 range and they both have the flamming bomb instead of the GHS.

The mystery continues.

Ahh god =( This is eating away at me
Must find out!
Would be amazing if this frame was actually #798 tho!

 

[purkle]

Jim from thefiringline.com had some interesting thoughts.

Jim said;

Under CURRENT regulations by BATFE, if you're a gunsmith and modify a gun severely enough, you've "manufactured a new gun while destroying the old one" and at that point, you (the gunsmith) have to attach a new serial number linking back to YOU, the manufacturer. And you'd better have the right Federal license to do all this.

The point at which the mods are "severe enough" to kick this into effect aren't very clear, but if made today your Nana's gun would absolutely qualify: caliber, barrel and cylinder are all swapped.

Today, a lot of gunsmiths have manufacturing licenses for that reason. Take a look at the custom revolvers of Gary Reeder for example, he has a manufacturing license and re-marks guns that started with a Ruger frame all the time:

REVOLVER LISTINGS INDEX PAGE

I know for a fact Reeder has a full manufacturer's permit same as S&W or Ruger. In fact, in addition to modifying Ruger and Freedom Arms revolvers he's done small runs of his own totally scratch-built guns from the frame up.

As an example of how this area of law works, if you call up Reeder and have him buy a Ruger Bisley Hunter in 44Mag and have it modded to, say, this:

http://www.reedercustomguns.com/revolvers/510gnr.htm

...you can. He finishes it, and it arrives at your dealer and gets sold to you as a "Reeder 510 Hunter" or whatever with a REEDER-SUPPLIED serial number - original Ruger markings and serial number are stripped off.

Same as what Nana's gunsmith did.

Most of those Reeders are modified to at least the same degree as your Nana's critter, which is now pretty well confirmed as having started life circa WW1 as a .45ACP.

So, despite the dire warnings by some on that thread that the gun is "contraband", I think the fact that you can prove it IS heavily modified (started life as a WW1 45!) saves you.

The gunsmith pulled the original serial number and added his own, same as Gary Reeder does today. Did the gunsmith hold a manufacturing license like Reeder? Who the hell knows, we have no clue who the dude was. Probably not, but nobody can prove either way whether or not he had the right Federal permit. We don't even know if it was modded in Alaska (good thing because it's quite possible there were NO licensed manufacturers in Alaska pre-1955!). But the result today is a gun that is modded to the same degree and in the same way as guns we know are 100% legal such as Reeder's.

Now, I wouldn't carry it as a CCW piece(!) but...I think you'll be OK. You're verging just a little into "gray area" here and a really nasty Federal prosecutor who's trying to jack you up for something else might try and make a case. But as long as you're not running a meth lab or bestest buddies with Osama Yo Mama I think you'll be OK



Thoughts?

 

[bk43]

I just dont see how they could have taken off the ring and the other numbers and leave 798 on there without some kind of evidence.

Carefully take the grips off and lay the gun with the barrel pointing to your left. Near the bottom of the grip frame is a pin that sticks out and into the grip panels to position them. Look about a quarter of an inch below that pin and to your left a bit. If there is a smaller pin that sits flush with the frame, or just a hole, that is how the lanyard ring was held in place and your gun had the lanyard at one time.

You have a wonderful family heirloom with fantastic provenance. Treasure it regardless of what it turns out to be.

Bob

 

[LOBO]

Thanks for sharing with us. Your Grandmother sounds like a great lady.

 

[M29since14]

I can't resist commenting, even though much more knowledgeable people already have.

Very interesting revolver! - and thread - but I think much ado about nothing regarding the serial number. The serial number IS whatever is stamped on the gun. Current foolishness probably antedates when that number was re-stamped (if it was) and all the mods were done. It is what it is. But in any case, Lee's suggestion to look at the yoke should tell the tale - unless it too has been replaced and everything repolished to match, or the number ground away when the gun was refinished.

Purkle, I would keep this thing where it belongs - in your family. Just to be safe, avoid letting it attract the attention of anyone who might choose to make an issue of it. If anyone does, they have way too much time on their hands and should be horse whipped for wasting the tax-payer's money and excessive stupidity.

I hope you realize, and I am sure you do, that the fact that the gun was assembled from parts in no way detracts from its interest - to me, it accelerates it. It is a great piece of your family's history and other than taking necessary steps to preserve it (i.e., getting after that rust!), it should be left as-is and handed down from generation to generation with the knowledge of where it came from and how it was used. Don't let anyone talk you into changing anything about it. All this JMHO, and worth exactly what it cost.

Thanks for showing us.

 

[purkle]

Thanks for sharing with us. Your Grandmother sounds like a great lady.

Thanks Lobo! She was quite a lady thats for sure

 

[purkle]

I can't resist commenting, even though much more knowledgeable people already have.

Very interesting revolver! - and thread - but I think much ado about nothing regarding the serial number. The serial number IS whatever is stamped on the gun. Current foolishness probably antedates when that number was re-stamped (if it was) and all the mods were done. It is what it is. But in any case, Lee's suggestion to look at the yoke should tell the tale - unless it too has been replaced and everything repolished to match, or the number ground away when the gun was refinished.

Purkle, I would keep this thing where it belongs - in your family. Just to be safe, avoid letting it attract the attention of anyone who might choose to make an issue of it. If anyone does, they have way too much time on their hands and should be horse whipped for wasting the tax-payer's money and excessive stupidity.

I hope you realize, and I am sure you do, that the fact that the gun was assembled from parts in no way detracts from its interest - to me, it accelerates it. It is a great piece of your family's history and other than taking necessary steps to preserve it (i.e., getting after that rust!), it should be left as-is and handed down from generation to generation with the knowledge of where it came from and how it was used. Don't let anyone talk you into changing anything about it. All this JMHO, and worth exactly what it cost.

Thanks for showing us.

Thank you for having an interest in our families handgun M29
I assure you that this will never be sold as long as i have it and will keep it in the family. At first i thought because this was a parts gun that its interest would be rather low until i thought more about it. Because this is a parts gun makes it More interesting as its not a regular full constructed S&W. The story behind t is also pretty great, i just wish i knew more about it Before Gwen's time of owning it. She might have gotten it from another family member... I'm going to ask around the family to see if i can find more information on it.

Once i get it back i will check the yoke.. and i will hafto research the proper procedures in protecting this piece from rust and the elements.

 

[kpm]

This was my grandmothers S&W revolver, it is serial number 798. PERIOD.