In defense of others

[BCDWYO]

Yeah I really have a hard time thinking I would stand back and observe in a situation like this. I would definitely NOT just start blasting. I honestly think the best approach would be to aggressively verbally challenge the BG...my hand would either be on my gun or it would be out and at low ready...this would ideally get him to back off and end the conflict till the cops arrive. If he turned his aggression toward me then I would defend myself as needed.
In my mind this is what I think I would (and should) do...in real life I can't honestly say for sure.

By the way I've seen it said here a lot lately to "don't be a hero". While I think I understand the point that is intended (ie don't be reckless, think before you act, etc), I have to wonder when did being a hero become a bad thing? I've got a family and plenty of things to live for and I do not have a death wish, but I, like many here, am to an age when a heart attack or something worse could claim me without warning. If God says its my time to go then it will be. If He puts me in a situation to be a hero, then I can sure think of worse things for my eulogy! Sorry to digress but that is sorta my philosophy on the matter. It is a very personal decision and I can't harshly judge those many of you who apparently feel otherwise

 

[ArmedNerd]

I feel like I would want to help, on the other hand as was mentioned, I've chosen Law Enforcement as a career (trying to get in shape for the next academy in January) and so I've talked to a lot of cops and they all say domestics and traffic stops suck. I would still probably intervene. How would depend on the circumstances.

If it was a active shooting scenario, I would definitely pop the guy like I said in a previous thread. Quickie Mart robbery, he can have the cash. But life and limb? I couldn't stand there and let someone die.

 

[Martimus]

This is getting intersting, surprised at how many say 'mind your own business and let him stab her.' I know, no one said it that way, but...
Let's take it a step further- I really do wanta know what yall are thinking:
So he's yelling, calling her names, she's backing up, and he reaches out and slashes her- say her arm, knife slides along and also cuts her chest.
Do you still stand by and become a 'good witness'? And then he does it again...What do you tell the cops, the reporters, when they ask 'so you stood there, and got his description?'
Really, I'm not being a hardcase, just thinking this thru to the next step.

If the man physically attacks and cuts her, the parameters just changed in a significant way. So unless this woman likes bleeding, I suspect you'd then know if this was just a difference of opinion... or something more significant. Her reaction to the wound should provide a lot of clues in terms of what needs to happen next.

Personally I think I'd still be reaching for that cell phone before reacting further. Better to have PD on the way ASAP!

 

[brown10]

Great thread for thought and I'm definitely not the hero type, but I agree with this post. I've been around a while, kids are all grown and in good shape, and the wife is set. My son is a K9 LEO and I have great respect for the job and the danger that is a part of the service, and I would dial 911 as soon as possible. Truth is law enforcement will arrive after everything is over, most likely. I would most likely get involved. I have a wife and daughter and hope that someone will come to their aid if they ever need it. I don't care if the BG is her husband, boyfriend, or a zombie. If I was 35, kids in school, etc., not so sure but I still hope I would help. I don't post much here but I sure do learn a lot. As stated in Proverbs 27:17 - "As iron sharpens iron, so one man sharpens another." Thanks for the sharpening. - jerry

Yeah I really have a hard time thinking I would stand back and observe in a situation like this. I would definitely NOT just start blasting. I honestly think the best approach would be to aggressively verbally challenge the BG...my hand would either be on my gun or it would be out and at low ready...this would ideally get him to back off and end the conflict till the cops arrive. If he turned his aggression toward me then I would defend myself as needed.
In my mind this is what I think I would (and should) do...in real life I can't honestly say for sure.

By the way I've seen it said here a lot lately to "don't be a hero". While I think I understand the point that is intended (ie don't be reckless, think before you act, etc), I have to wonder when did being a hero become a bad thing? I've got a family and plenty of things to live for and I do not have a death wish, but I, like many here, am to an age when a heart attack or something worse could claim me without warning. If God says its my time to go then it will be. If He puts me in a situation to be a hero, then I can sure think of worse things for my eulogy! Sorry to digress but that is sorta my philosophy on the matter. It is a very personal decision and I can't harshly judge those many of you who apparently feel otherwise

 

[jdh]

First the "situation" in the op said a knife was pulled. It did not say the distance between them or anything else to indicate an actual potential lethal threat, just that a knife was pulled. A simple show of a weapon does not automatically meet the legal requirements of the use of deadly force. At that point you have no justification.

Bars and nightclubs (I'm not going to go into what you are doing in a bar packing heat) tend to be crowded. Add in the display of a weapon, his knife or your gun, and things are going to crowded and chaotic. You better be good.

When you decide to intervene and you are focused in on the threat and tunnel vision sets in, are you absolutely positive the ex came alone? Clint Smith "Wolves travel in packs."

All the Macho "save the damsel in distress" rhetoric aside, are you prepared for the legal, social, and emotional consequences you will experience as a result of your actions? I'll be willing to bet not.

We all want to be the knight in shining armor slaying dragons and rescuing damsels. I'm not telling anyone not to do what they can when they can. I am telling you you better be right, you better be good, an you better be prepared to suffer the consequences of your actions, or inactions.

 

[Kanewpadle]

This is getting intersting, surprised at how many say 'mind your own business and let him stab her.' I know, no one said it that way, but...
Let's take it a step further- I really do wanta know what yall are thinking:
So he's yelling, calling her names, she's backing up, and he reaches out and slashes her- say her arm, knife slides along and also cuts her chest.
Do you still stand by and become a 'good witness'? And then he does it again...What do you tell the cops, the reporters, when they ask 'so you stood there, and got his description?'
Really, I'm not being a hardcase, just thinking this thru to the next step.

Chuck, let me tell you something that happened to me that really made think.

Several years ago my wife and I were at a local bingo hall playing the penny slots. I was standing behind my wife watching her play. I heard a little commotion and looked across the room and saw a woman running towards me. She had two purses in her hands. One hers, the other she just swiped from another lady. She ran by me at top speed while bring chased. I could have easily clotheslined her 120 or so pounds to the floor. But I didn't because I didn't know EXACTLY what was going on although I had a pretty good idea.

I followed the thief out to the parking lot, got a plate number and called police. While I was outside, several people followed including a sorry looking guy that kept eyeballing me. I was armed and kept my distance from him because I didn't feel good about him.

When the cops showed, the sorry looking guy disappeared. I gave a statement and after a while was asked to review the camera footage of the event.

The sorry guy was standing right behind me at a slot machine looking straight at my back. He wasn't playing the machine.

The cops recognized him as felon with a few pages of assaults, thefts etc...

The cops and I speculate that IF I had intervened I would have been attacked from behind. And then followed ME outside to make sure I didn't intervene.

That camera footage REALLY woke me up. I realize that this situation is different from what you describe but intervening in ANY situation can be equally as dangerous even though we THINK things are in our favor.

While are not required to chase/apprehend bad guys, we have to be even more careful about what we do. We don't wear body armor. Don't have a partner or others close by. No long gun in the car. No dog. It's just us. And cops don't have family members with them.

In closing, I will help if I can. But I will observe, look around, and use extreme caution. In the time it takes me to do that, the event just might be over causing me to be a witness.

There are just WAY too many variables to discuss and how we would go about them. But I will approach each and every event in the same manner.

 

[mc5aw]

Clint Smith gave an example to our TR class years ago ... You're out walking down a quiet street, when you come across an elderly woman being manhandled by a two large males who resemble bikers. Do you come to her aid, specifically with your firearm drawn?

Most everyone (except myself and one other) answered in the affirmative.

Then Mr. Smith added, "You've now drawn your firearms on two undercover officers trying to arrest a known drug dealer. DON'T TRY TO BE A HERO!"

Unless my life and well being, or that of my family, are in peril, I mind my own business and heed Mr. Smith's advice.

 

[BCDWYO]

Clint Smith gave an example to our TR class years ago ... You're out walking down a quiet street, when you come across an elderly woman being manhandled by a two large males who resemble bikers. Do you come to her aid, specifically with your firearm drawn?

Most everyone (except myself and one other) answered in the affirmative.

Then Mr. Smith added, "You've now drawn your firearms on two undercover officers trying to arrest a known drug dealer. DON'T TRY TO BE A HERO!"

Unless my life and well being, or that of my family, are in peril, I mind my own business and heed Mr. Smith's advice.

This one is a great example. Do you pull out your gun and start shooting the two "bikers"?? No of course not. But do you SAY something and prepare yourself to help? I say of course I do! I realize that I don't have all the information when I come upon a situation like this, and I hope my common sense will prevent me from doing anything rash...but the odds are MUCH more likely in this scenario that the "bikers" are truly bad guys, and the little old lady is a helpless good guy, so I don't think "minding my own business and quietly letting it play out" is the correct response. The undercover cops in this scenario would be aware of how this looked to outside observers, and I assume they would be quick to identify themselves.

 

[wetdog]

Just my take on it. The reason for CCW is "Self" Defense.

 

[poordevil]

Several years ago I worked at a High School in San Diego CA......the one Ted Williams graduated from. I worked in the athletic department. There was a young gem teacher who had a Black Belt in something or other. Over one week end he interposed himself in something that did not concern him, against several guys. Because he was black belt he thought he could handle them. Well he showed up to work with his face rearranged and a couple of teeth missing. The bruises went away but he had to have dental surgery to fix his mouth.

Another time a fellow worked for my dad in construction. He was a Golden Gloves Boxer. He was going into a liquor store to get some beer just as a couple of smaller guys came running out with cases of beer they stole. He tried to stop them had they cut him, Long, Deep and Frequent! He had over 300 some stitches and could no longer work for us.

Fools rush in where Angles fear to tread.

 

[McBear]

• Be invisible
• Be a good witness
• Only protect yourself and your own

My father has been dead since 010101; if I followed that advise I would still be waiting for that lecture and boot from the Normandy hardened, coal town toughened butcher. Frankly, I would hear it every time I tried to go to sleep.

I have three scars [and ringing in my ears] on me, all from helping others. I wouldn't change a single decision.

 

[ChattanoogaPhil]

This is getting intersting, surprised at how many say 'mind your own business and let him stab her.' I know, no one said it that way, but...

What do you tell the cops, the reporters, when they ask 'so you stood there, and got his description?'

Good question. Maybe it would go something like the below?

-----------------

Reporter: I'm Sally Scoop with WMYOB. I understand that both you gentlemen were in the bar during this brutal stabbing. Could you tell our viewers in TV land what you saw?

Witness 1: Yes. I was sitting at a table about 30 feet away. I saw a man with a knife come up to the woman then grab her by the arm and start yelling at her. She was trying to get away and crying out for someone to help her. He stabbed her in the shoulder and she screamed then fell to the floor. He wrestled with her on the floor for a bit until he got her pinned down, then began stabbing her in the chest while she kept screaming for help. After a while she finally stopped screaming for help and then the guy stopped stabbing her. I figured she must be dead so I turned off my iPhone vid camera.

Witness 2: I didn't see much. After the guy stabbed the woman in the shoulder I left the table to get a couple beers... but Witness1 said he'll post the vid on YouTube.

 

[mc5aw]

One other fact that requires consideration is the litigious nature of today's society. Before I morph into Dudley Do-Right and stick my nose in some else's business WITHOUT HAVING A CLEAR UNDERSTANDING OF THE CIRCUMSTANCES, I need to be aware of the probable lawsuit associated with my actions. Whether interjecting into the bar room spat or helping out Granny Crack Dealer, I'm setting myself up for serious legal consequences, ones that I'm not willing to subject my family to.

 

[walkin jack]

I have no qualms about defending a stranger from eminent danger in principle but I believe that each situation must be evaluated and decided individually. There will be lots of variables. I would consider the following:

What gun are you carrying? I rotate several different calibers and kinds of hand guns and some would be more useful in some situations than they would in others.

How far away are you from the problem?

What is your skill level and experience with the gun you have with you?

Are you confident that you have enough ammo with you to safely end the situation?

What is the potential for collateral damage?

How many people are you up against and how are they armed.

What is the mental/emotional condition of the bad guy(s) (Crazy people can be very unpredictable)

By coming to the aid of this stranger are you putting a friend or loved one of your own in harms way?

Lots of real world things to think about. It ain't the movies y'all.

 

[4330Inroute]

......How many cops get attacked when they show up to a husband beating his wife call, by the wife? Don't be a hero.

This happened to me on a domestic call. Husband made the wife's face look like hamburger. Arrested him and on the way to the patrol car she came running up from behind and tried to shove a 9 inch kitchen knife in my back. It hit my vest and slid up. I turned and struck her as she was drawing back for a second strike. He got out the next morning on bail and she was booked for attempted murder of a police/peace officer. She wound up doing some very serious time for that.

I've seen where both parties will turn on you if you try to intervene and stop the fight or protect the woman. It's your call.

 

[66snub]

It would be easy to rationalize drawing down on a man armed with a knife. It's also a very dangerous proposition, especially if the man becomes aware of your presence before you can get your piece out of the holster. The very most basic and fundamental aspect of this, is make sure that if you are going to attempt to do something like this, try to do everything in your power to do it right, because there won't be any do-overs.

As long as I can get it done without getting the woman hurt, I would absolutely draw down on him.

 

[LennyLames]

My last instructor from one of the states where I was renewing a carry permit had a saying: "If it ain't kin, I ain't in" meaning that unless it was his family that was being attacked, he wouldn't get involved, advising that we shouldn't get involved, either.

As likewise described in some of the posts above, it's hard to tell the actual circumstances behind such incidents; which one is the actual victim and which one is the bad person. In the original post, for example, "he pulls a knife" yet there's no mention that the observer can see the woman's hands which could be holding a gun, or the woman could have other companions threatening the man. One can argue that it was the man that followed the woman, but the situation is too complex to get involved in.

The instructor also mentioned that he's never heard of a victim that was willing to pay the bail, legal fees, penalties, lost wages, etc. of the good samaritan.

I've personally worried about having to defend my own family in a situation, holding the bad guy at bay with my defensive weapon, then some wannabe hero suddenly shows up and shoots me, mistakenly assuming that I'm the bad guy.

Of course there are situations that are more clear-cut, e.g., mass shootings (You could be next), or a 250 lb. guy attacking a 6 year old child with a pitchfork. To quote former Supreme Court Justice Potter Stewart, albeit under a different context, "I know it when I see it."

 

[vigil617]

Excellent thread, and lots to think about here.

In my state, the concealed-carry statute provides that you are not criminally liable if you intervene and shoot someone posing an imminent threat of death or serious injury to you or to another.

BUT: if the other person under attack was the aggressor in the situation -- if he or she started or escalated the fight to a higher level of violence -- then you are NOT protected from criminal prosecution if you shoot. If the fight started with fists, and is being responded to with fists, then you're not able to intervene. If the fight started with fists, and the person now being attacked with a knife or pistol had drawn first (escalating the fight), then you can't intervene against the second individual without criminal liability. Complicated, yes, and a good reason to be very careful if you ever do intervene in an assault involving other people.

I realize that's not part of the scenario in the thread, but it's certainly a caution that knowing the circumstances of the altercation involving the other people is CRITICAL.

 

[M29since14]

To quote former Supreme Court Justice Potter Stewart, albeit under a different context, "I know it when I see it."

Excellent. And it follows, too, that sometimes you may not have seen ALL of it. That is where these scenarios become so tricky. If you think about this too much, you will end up leaving your pistol at home.

 

[Chuck1217]

kanew, I appreciate you going to the effort to explain that situation. I am not saying I would intervent when this guy pulls a knife, and I sure don't take drawing my weapon lightly. I guess that's why I kinda- escalated- this scenario to the BG actually slicing the woman.
Though I agree 'when did being a hero become a bad thing?' I also am in no hurry to get involved. I believe in the original post, pulling the knife, I would do as many suggested, stand back, get loved ones away, call the cops and note the description.
But if it escalated- I'd like to think I would do more than call the cops.
Someone said these things happen really fast- well, in the case of 'she's already dead'...as mentioned- how would we know THAT? I would think as long as he's slicving-stabbing my job would be to try and stop him. Another post was 'it ight be really crowded' and really, I don't think any of us would start shooting into a vrowd- if there are that many, I'd think there would be several men willing to jump the guy together.
Anyway, I'm talking too mkuch. Just meant to say- no, I wouldn't do anything unless she was being hurt- or it was obvious- and as for the perosn who asked 'are you ready for the cops to question etcetc..' well, if a woman's life were being stabbed away, yeh, I guess I'd be ready. Better than feeling guilty the rest of my life knowing I mighta saved her.