In defense of others

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Packard

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I read in another thread that the writer would draw down to protect his family and himself. I don't think anyone would find fault with that statement.

But what about other innocents? Would you draw on someone threatening a stranger?

I'll give a "for instance":

A young woman is in a bar/nightclub. Her ex-boyfriend shows up. He is not happy that she dumped him. He pulls a knife.

Do you come to her defense? You've never seen the woman or the man before in your life.

I'd like to hear both your response and your reasoning. I'm trying to formulate mine.

To date, my position is that "the strong have an obligation to protect the weak". If you accept that a gun makes you the stronger, then you would defend the woman. Right now that is my position. But I'm listening to others.
 
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Your example is full of emotional responses
(1) "bar/nightclub" as opposed to say .. church
(2) "she dumped him" , maybe for good reason, or maybe not
(3) "he pulls a knife", now maybe we have a problem - maybe in the few seconds/minutes available I can judge how serious this is, can he be "talked" out of this or is he not thinking beyond the moment. Try to get him out of the environment and see if he will calm down.

A life is a life, as far as I know we only go around once. I would try to defend the life in danger, being aware of the possible and future entrapment I am entering. This is not an easy example, seems like every choice has forks in the road, another reason I support MY policeman - he has rules and regulations to work within, in my case probably, I will have a DA just looking for a case.
 
1) gun does not make you a cop.
2) Domestic fights scare cops.
3) You shoot him, she may testify against you.("He always waves a knife at me-it doesn't mean anything") She may even attack you. With the knife.
4) You have an obligation to protect yourself and your own. Even the cops are not obligated to defend you.
5) What you say you will do and what you actually do may or may not match up.
6) Knife is in his hand, your gun in its holster-he is in the strong position.

After all that, I don't know what I would do. As I don't spend time in bars, I guess it's moot.
 
Packard,

Not trying to be contrarian but I think most states prohibit ccw carry in a bar. It is against the law to carry with license to do so in place that derives 51% of income from sale of booze in Texas. We would have no defense in your hypothetical scenario. The bar must post a circle slash with 51 in the center.

Alcohol and guns don't mix well. ANYWHERE.

Regards

Bill
 
dougb1946 said:
3) You shoot him, she may testify against you.("He always waves a knife at me-it doesn't mean anything") She may even attack you. With the knife.
Click to expand...

Most likely. Without addressing the bar/alcohol issue, I believe it was Mas Ayoob who once wrote that he advised private citizens not use a firearm in defense of others except in cases of a person committing mayhem and an obviously vicious assault on a uniformed police officer who has been rendered unable to defend himself, and even the latter case could be problematic. (If I have incorrectly attributed this to Mr. Ayoob, or screwed up the details, I will stand corrected.)

I was never sure of the exact logic of this comment, but assume he had superior knowledge when he made it. Certainly it is possible a villain could mascarade as a policeman, so I understand his apprehension there. I am not sure why he would mention the mayhem thing.

In California, not too long ago, there was the absolutely appalling case where motorists passing by allowed a madman to beat a small child to death on a public highway. I presume Californians are mostly unarmed, but to me, if there was ever a reason for an armed citizen to intervene in an act of violence against a third-party, it would be in defense of a child who was being savaged by a vicious lunatic. I doubt too many Hoosiers would have stood still for that one, whether they had a firearm or not. :(
 
I thihnk the bar-alcohol thing is being made THE scenario. What if it's a grocery store? a Macy's? Seems to me the question is- would you defend her- not where she was located.
My answer? I don't know, I also think Ayoob suggests we not in MOST CASES. In this one, where he pulls a knife- there's more than one answer. "Hey buddy, come on, put the knife down." If he comes at you, problem solved. Hers is too. Lilke was said before, how do we know he doesn;t threaten her like that all the time? But then, what if he slashes her- we gonna stand there and say "oh my goodness, look what he did!"
After all that, I still don't know what I'd do, and I try and think about these things- as Ayoob also says, practice for many situations, but keep in mind what you practice probably AIN"T what's gonna happen. But the more we practice things like that, the better we should be able to respond in- simila situations. If we don't practice ANYthing we won't be ready for....anything.
 
Biginge said:
Packard,

Not trying to be contrarian but I think most states prohibit ccw carry in a bar. It is against the law to carry with license to do so in place that derives 51% of income from sale of booze in Texas. We would have no defense in your hypothetical scenario. The bar must post a circle slash with 51 in the center.

Alcohol and guns don't mix well. ANYWHERE.

Regards

Bill
Click to expand...

New York allows it, and I don't drink alcohol.
 
in many areas bars and night clubs are blacklisted CCW areas under the assumption of consumption ... that aside ... the scenario as stated ... you don't want to fire a shot in this one for oh so many reasons.
first you probably only think you know the story, if you are wrong you go to jail.
second, as someone else stated, this is a relationship issue and maybe just maybe she still loves him .... Im sure weve all vomited enough over that one to know it happens ... if so, and its rather high in probability. What will she tell the cops responding?
But then, how do we really know about the relationship thing anyhow? theres no way to know that for sure. for all we know the dude followed her in after she picked his pocket and just chose a poor means of taking back what was his.
leave these things alone unless you really know the story.
If you must act, the best objective is to get the aggressor / aggressors to believe its in their best interest to soul kiss the floor till the cops come to sort it out. If you right, he's going to jail. if your wrong, your not going to jail, and you only have to live with the guilt that you greatly contributed to his really messed up bad day
 
Packard said:
I read in another thread that the writer would draw down to protect his family and himself. I don't think anyone would find fault with that statement.

But what about other innocents? Would you draw on someone threatening a stranger?

I'll give a "for instance":

A young woman is in a bar/nightclub. Her ex-boyfriend shows up. He is not happy that she dumped him. He pulls a knife.

Do you come to her defense? You've never seen the woman or the man before in your life.

I'd like to hear both your response and your reasoning. I'm trying to formulate mine.

To date, my position is that "the strong have an obligation to protect the weak". If you accept that a gun makes you the stronger, then you would defend the woman. Right now that is my position. But I'm listening to others.
Click to expand...
In my state, it is illegal to bring a conceal gun into a establishment that sells alcohol. However, having said that. If you carry its up to you, and if you have to defend a woman from a knife wielding crazed man, you would IMO, be totally in the right, but then you may have to face consequences. Only you can decide if your gonna take the risk.
 
Too many off duty, out of uniform cops get shot doing just that. Also look at Zimmerman. Mind your own business. Be a good witness if need be. How many cops get attacked when they show up to a husband beating his wife call, by the wife? Don't be a hero.
 
There was a discussion on another forum about Carrying under LEOSA and responding to this type of thing. My answer there and here is NO. I am retired and in the eyes of the law no different from someone who holds a carry permit. Since I am retired I have no law enforcement powers, neither do you. I am allowed to carry to protect me and my loved ones, same as you. If something were to happen in a public place and there was no immediate and direct threat to me/mine I would try to remain unnoticed, observe, call 911, and wait for the young-uns to arrive and do what they are paid/trained to do. When they have handled the situation offer to make a statement if they need one then go about my business. I've done my time it is time to let them do their. I didn't survive 25+ do screw up and die for 7-11 corp.

To summarize:
remain covert
observe
pull your cell phone not your pistol
report
act only if you are directly threatened
go home to your family in one piece, don't make them have to go visit you in the hospital, mortuary, OR JAIL CELL.
 
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WWhether it be a bar, mall, or store, I would do what I could. Which probably wouldn't be much except be a good witness.

A knife assault is over very quickly in most casely. She would probably be dead or hurt before I reacted. Because before I react, I'll check six and see exactly what's going on around me.

I had seen people assaulted many times and it usually doesn't last long. Observe. Watch your back. Get family out of there. Call 911.

Here is a video that show what can go wrong when you intervene. Watch "Husband and Wife attacked".
The Best Defense Videos | Down Range TV
 
Wasn't including you in my first post, vb. :) And your plan clearly is best, if at all possible. In fact, that's exactly how the vast majority of my armed "interactions" worked out.

Be safe.

venomballistics said:
what he did was in line with what I said. If you must act, your best bet is get em on the floor and await the cops and let them sort it out.
Click to expand...
 
That's a tuff decision...I guess I would wait and see if he actually stabbed her and then intervene.
 
This is getting intersting, surprised at how many say 'mind your own business and let him stab her.' I know, no one said it that way, but...
Let's take it a step further- I really do wanta know what yall are thinking:
So he's yelling, calling her names, she's backing up, and he reaches out and slashes her- say her arm, knife slides along and also cuts her chest.
Do you still stand by and become a 'good witness'? And then he does it again...What do you tell the cops, the reporters, when they ask 'so you stood there, and got his description?'
Really, I'm not being a hardcase, just thinking this thru to the next step.
 
Yeah I really have a hard time thinking I would stand back and observe in a situation like this. I would definitely NOT just start blasting. I honestly think the best approach would be to aggressively verbally challenge the BG...my hand would either be on my gun or it would be out and at low ready...this would ideally get him to back off and end the conflict till the cops arrive. If he turned his aggression toward me then I would defend myself as needed.
In my mind this is what I think I would (and should) do...in real life I can't honestly say for sure.

By the way I've seen it said here a lot lately to "don't be a hero". While I think I understand the point that is intended (ie don't be reckless, think before you act, etc), I have to wonder when did being a hero become a bad thing? I've got a family and plenty of things to live for and I do not have a death wish, but I, like many here, am to an age when a heart attack or something worse could claim me without warning. If God says its my time to go then it will be. If He puts me in a situation to be a hero, then I can sure think of worse things for my eulogy! Sorry to digress but that is sorta my philosophy on the matter. It is a very personal decision and I can't harshly judge those many of you who apparently feel otherwise
 
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I feel like I would want to help, on the other hand as was mentioned, I've chosen Law Enforcement as a career (trying to get in shape for the next academy in January) and so I've talked to a lot of cops and they all say domestics and traffic stops suck. I would still probably intervene. How would depend on the circumstances.

If it was a active shooting scenario, I would definitely pop the guy like I said in a previous thread. Quickie Mart robbery, he can have the cash. But life and limb? I couldn't stand there and let someone die.
 
Chuck1217 said:
This is getting intersting, surprised at how many say 'mind your own business and let him stab her.' I know, no one said it that way, but...
Let's take it a step further- I really do wanta know what yall are thinking:
So he's yelling, calling her names, she's backing up, and he reaches out and slashes her- say her arm, knife slides along and also cuts her chest.
Do you still stand by and become a 'good witness'? And then he does it again...What do you tell the cops, the reporters, when they ask 'so you stood there, and got his description?'
Really, I'm not being a hardcase, just thinking this thru to the next step.
Click to expand...

If the man physically attacks and cuts her, the parameters just changed in a significant way. So unless this woman likes bleeding, I suspect you'd then know if this was just a difference of opinion... or something more significant. Her reaction to the wound should provide a lot of clues in terms of what needs to happen next.

Personally I think I'd still be reaching for that cell phone before reacting further. Better to have PD on the way ASAP!
 
Great thread for thought and I'm definitely not the hero type, but I agree with this post. I've been around a while, kids are all grown and in good shape, and the wife is set. My son is a K9 LEO and I have great respect for the job and the danger that is a part of the service, and I would dial 911 as soon as possible. Truth is law enforcement will arrive after everything is over, most likely. I would most likely get involved. I have a wife and daughter and hope that someone will come to their aid if they ever need it. I don't care if the BG is her husband, boyfriend, or a zombie. If I was 35, kids in school, etc., not so sure but I still hope I would help. I don't post much here but I sure do learn a lot. As stated in Proverbs 27:17 - "As iron sharpens iron, so one man sharpens another." Thanks for the sharpening. - jerry
BCDWYO said:
Yeah I really have a hard time thinking I would stand back and observe in a situation like this. I would definitely NOT just start blasting. I honestly think the best approach would be to aggressively verbally challenge the BG...my hand would either be on my gun or it would be out and at low ready...this would ideally get him to back off and end the conflict till the cops arrive. If he turned his aggression toward me then I would defend myself as needed.
In my mind this is what I think I would (and should) do...in real life I can't honestly say for sure.

By the way I've seen it said here a lot lately to "don't be a hero". While I think I understand the point that is intended (ie don't be reckless, think before you act, etc), I have to wonder when did being a hero become a bad thing? I've got a family and plenty of things to live for and I do not have a death wish, but I, like many here, am to an age when a heart attack or something worse could claim me without warning. If God says its my time to go then it will be. If He puts me in a situation to be a hero, then I can sure think of worse things for my eulogy! Sorry to digress but that is sorta my philosophy on the matter. It is a very personal decision and I can't harshly judge those many of you who apparently feel otherwise
Click to expand...
 
First the "situation" in the op said a knife was pulled. It did not say the distance between them or anything else to indicate an actual potential lethal threat, just that a knife was pulled. A simple show of a weapon does not automatically meet the legal requirements of the use of deadly force. At that point you have no justification.

Bars and nightclubs (I'm not going to go into what you are doing in a bar packing heat) tend to be crowded. Add in the display of a weapon, his knife or your gun, and things are going to crowded and chaotic. You better be good.

When you decide to intervene and you are focused in on the threat and tunnel vision sets in, are you absolutely positive the ex came alone? Clint Smith "Wolves travel in packs."

All the Macho "save the damsel in distress" rhetoric aside, are you prepared for the legal, social, and emotional consequences you will experience as a result of your actions? I'll be willing to bet not.

We all want to be the knight in shining armor slaying dragons and rescuing damsels. I'm not telling anyone not to do what they can when they can. I am telling you you better be right, you better be good, an you better be prepared to suffer the consequences of your actions, or inactions.
 
Chuck1217 said:
This is getting intersting, surprised at how many say 'mind your own business and let him stab her.' I know, no one said it that way, but...
Let's take it a step further- I really do wanta know what yall are thinking:
So he's yelling, calling her names, she's backing up, and he reaches out and slashes her- say her arm, knife slides along and also cuts her chest.
Do you still stand by and become a 'good witness'? And then he does it again...What do you tell the cops, the reporters, when they ask 'so you stood there, and got his description?'
Really, I'm not being a hardcase, just thinking this thru to the next step.
Click to expand...

Chuck, let me tell you something that happened to me that really made think.

Several years ago my wife and I were at a local bingo hall playing the penny slots. I was standing behind my wife watching her play. I heard a little commotion and looked across the room and saw a woman running towards me. She had two purses in her hands. One hers, the other she just swiped from another lady. She ran by me at top speed while bring chased. I could have easily clotheslined her 120 or so pounds to the floor. But I didn't because I didn't know EXACTLY what was going on although I had a pretty good idea.

I followed the thief out to the parking lot, got a plate number and called police. While I was outside, several people followed including a sorry looking guy that kept eyeballing me. I was armed and kept my distance from him because I didn't feel good about him.

When the cops showed, the sorry looking guy disappeared. I gave a statement and after a while was asked to review the camera footage of the event.

The sorry guy was standing right behind me at a slot machine looking straight at my back. He wasn't playing the machine.

The cops recognized him as felon with a few pages of assaults, thefts etc...

The cops and I speculate that IF I had intervened I would have been attacked from behind. And then followed ME outside to make sure I didn't intervene.

That camera footage REALLY woke me up. I realize that this situation is different from what you describe but intervening in ANY situation can be equally as dangerous even though we THINK things are in our favor.

While are not required to chase/apprehend bad guys, we have to be even more careful about what we do. We don't wear body armor. Don't have a partner or others close by. No long gun in the car. No dog. It's just us. And cops don't have family members with them.

In closing, I will help if I can. But I will observe, look around, and use extreme caution. In the time it takes me to do that, the event just might be over causing me to be a witness.

There are just WAY too many variables to discuss and how we would go about them. But I will approach each and every event in the same manner.
 
Clint Smith gave an example to our TR class years ago ... You're out walking down a quiet street, when you come across an elderly woman being manhandled by a two large males who resemble bikers. Do you come to her aid, specifically with your firearm drawn?

Most everyone (except myself and one other) answered in the affirmative.

Then Mr. Smith added, "You've now drawn your firearms on two undercover officers trying to arrest a known drug dealer. DON'T TRY TO BE A HERO!"

Unless my life and well being, or that of my family, are in peril, I mind my own business and heed Mr. Smith's advice.
 
mc5aw said:
Clint Smith gave an example to our TR class years ago ... You're out walking down a quiet street, when you come across an elderly woman being manhandled by a two large males who resemble bikers. Do you come to her aid, specifically with your firearm drawn?

Most everyone (except myself and one other) answered in the affirmative.

Then Mr. Smith added, "You've now drawn your firearms on two undercover officers trying to arrest a known drug dealer. DON'T TRY TO BE A HERO!"

Unless my life and well being, or that of my family, are in peril, I mind my own business and heed Mr. Smith's advice.
Click to expand...

This one is a great example. Do you pull out your gun and start shooting the two "bikers"?? No of course not. But do you SAY something and prepare yourself to help? I say of course I do! I realize that I don't have all the information when I come upon a situation like this, and I hope my common sense will prevent me from doing anything rash...but the odds are MUCH more likely in this scenario that the "bikers" are truly bad guys, and the little old lady is a helpless good guy, so I don't think "minding my own business and quietly letting it play out" is the correct response. The undercover cops in this scenario would be aware of how this looked to outside observers, and I assume they would be quick to identify themselves.
 
Several years ago I worked at a High School in San Diego CA......the one Ted Williams graduated from. I worked in the athletic department. There was a young gem teacher who had a Black Belt in something or other. Over one week end he interposed himself in something that did not concern him, against several guys. Because he was black belt he thought he could handle them. Well he showed up to work with his face rearranged and a couple of teeth missing. The bruises went away but he had to have dental surgery to fix his mouth.

Another time a fellow worked for my dad in construction. He was a Golden Gloves Boxer. He was going into a liquor store to get some beer just as a couple of smaller guys came running out with cases of beer they stole. He tried to stop them had they cut him, Long, Deep and Frequent! He had over 300 some stitches and could no longer work for us.

Fools rush in where Angles fear to tread.
 
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