That 12 bar in A needs a metronome interface!
Tunes with gun calibers..... writing a tune titled,
"when cowgirls are singing" and they carry!!!
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Inherited a Revolver
- Thread starter CamaroDMD
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That 12 bar in A needs a metronome interface!
Tunes with gun calibers..... writing a tune titled,
"when cowgirls are singing" and they carry!!!
handejector
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Mike,
Where did the notion of the round butt get lost? Can I help you look for it?
I always know what my butts look like.
Even a blind collector could FEEL the difference.
Is anybody havin trouble tellin which is which in this pic of two 1905-4th Changes?
{HINT} The one on the right with the Ivory handles is a ROUND BUTT!
handejector
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Here ya go-
Using the 1902 // 1905 classification school of thought, I present a COMPLETE 38 Special K Frame Collection:
A Mod 1899
A Mod 1902
A Mod 1905
That's it. That's ALL ya need. Three Guns, and ya got em all!
The 1899 is the Round Butt gun on the left with a swivel.
WAIT!-- Does that make it a Model 1902? I may have one gun too many shown here! Maybe not.......1899 came before 1902. I think. I'm confused from years of chasing changes.
Anyway.....like I said, three guns is all you need. All that silly "change" stuff was invented by dealers just to make ya buy more guns!
Oh, wait again........I'm a dealer......that collects.....and studies........I'm gettin dizzy........I need to listen to some music and chill out.......Cha..Cha..Changes are drivin me nuts...I think......
[ame]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pl3vxEudif8[/ame]
Using the 1902 // 1905 classification school of thought, I present a COMPLETE 38 Special K Frame Collection:
A Mod 1899
A Mod 1902
A Mod 1905
That's it. That's ALL ya need. Three Guns, and ya got em all!
The 1899 is the Round Butt gun on the left with a swivel.
WAIT!-- Does that make it a Model 1902? I may have one gun too many shown here! Maybe not.......1899 came before 1902. I think. I'm confused from years of chasing changes.
Anyway.....like I said, three guns is all you need. All that silly "change" stuff was invented by dealers just to make ya buy more guns!
Oh, wait again........I'm a dealer......that collects.....and studies........I'm gettin dizzy........I need to listen to some music and chill out.......Cha..Cha..Changes are drivin me nuts...I think......
[ame]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pl3vxEudif8[/ame]
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handejector
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This past week I knocked the guts out of some really old M&Ps to give em a deep cleanin.
Remember- I'm a follower of the Neal & Jinks system....
I did not get beyond the 1905-3rd change, and I had observed 4 distinct varieties of rebound slides:
1- Slide with a key on it, no markings
2- Slide with a key and a patent date
3- Slide with no key, had patent date
4- Slide with no key, no date
So, a question-
Which slide do you need for your Model 1902?
Answer: NONE of the above! A Mod 1902 does not have a rebound slide! Neither does a Mod 1905.
Now, if you need a rebound slide for a 1905-1st with a ROUND butt, I can tell you exactly what to look for.
If you tell me it is a Mod 1902, go fish.
Remember- I'm a follower of the Neal & Jinks system....
I did not get beyond the 1905-3rd change, and I had observed 4 distinct varieties of rebound slides:
1- Slide with a key on it, no markings
2- Slide with a key and a patent date
3- Slide with no key, had patent date
4- Slide with no key, no date
So, a question-
Which slide do you need for your Model 1902?
Answer: NONE of the above! A Mod 1902 does not have a rebound slide! Neither does a Mod 1905.
Now, if you need a rebound slide for a 1905-1st with a ROUND butt, I can tell you exactly what to look for.
If you tell me it is a Mod 1902, go fish.
Really interesting information...I had no idea these were so "controversial" when it comes to what they are called.
So, if I understand this correctly...and I may not. Some people call this a Model 1902 and others would call it a Model 1905-2nd Change. Those in the 1902 camp call it that because that is what S&W called it when they originally sold it around 1908. Those in the Model 1905 camp call it that because mechanically it is like the other 1905 guns.
So here is what I don't understand. If S&W altered the design to make it more like the Model 1905...why market it as a Model 1902?
So, if I understand this correctly...and I may not. Some people call this a Model 1902 and others would call it a Model 1905-2nd Change. Those in the 1902 camp call it that because that is what S&W called it when they originally sold it around 1908. Those in the Model 1905 camp call it that because mechanically it is like the other 1905 guns.
So here is what I don't understand. If S&W altered the design to make it more like the Model 1905...why market it as a Model 1902?
I doubt anyone knows definitively. I'll give you my opinion. Because it was familiar. The Model 1902 had been out for 3 years and was mostly a round butt revolver. S&W did start to make square butt guns toward the end of the 1902 production but still called them Model 1902s. But they already had a product that was familiar to the market as a Model 1902. And, the difference between the two revolvers was obvious from the shape of the butt irrespective of the improved internals. So, round butt guns stayed Model 1902s and the new square butt guns became Model 1905s.
That's my two pesos.
That's my two pesos.
Lee
If I understand your comment, the round butt gun disappears in the N&J methodology. It does not disappear as a revolver. It's been offered continuously since 1899. The engineering-change methodology drops it in 1906, or. From that point forward, everything is a 1905. It worked for Roper, who needed it for the service department. I argue it does not work for identifying a revolver. One with a round butt is, simply, not a model of 1905.
If one chooses to call everything after 1906 a 1905, its OK with me, as long as they specify the butt configuration.
The more I think about this, the more I think the best way to bridge these two schools of thought is to refer to a round butt as "1902, identical to a 1905 ?? change". That does away with the confusion, and might satisfy both of us.
This all does causes confusion, like it or not. The 1st change to a 1902 is the thicker barrel with the shoulder. The next engineering change is the redesign of the cylinder stop. Since the 1905 was already introduced earlier, that is the 1st engineering change to the 1905, and simultaneously, the 2nd change to the 1902. This is all too confusing, and N&J conveniently does away with this mess by calling everything a 1905.
What more can I say ?!
Regards, Mike Priwer
If I understand your comment, the round butt gun disappears in the N&J methodology. It does not disappear as a revolver. It's been offered continuously since 1899. The engineering-change methodology drops it in 1906, or. From that point forward, everything is a 1905. It worked for Roper, who needed it for the service department. I argue it does not work for identifying a revolver. One with a round butt is, simply, not a model of 1905.
If one chooses to call everything after 1906 a 1905, its OK with me, as long as they specify the butt configuration.
The more I think about this, the more I think the best way to bridge these two schools of thought is to refer to a round butt as "1902, identical to a 1905 ?? change". That does away with the confusion, and might satisfy both of us.
This all does causes confusion, like it or not. The 1st change to a 1902 is the thicker barrel with the shoulder. The next engineering change is the redesign of the cylinder stop. Since the 1905 was already introduced earlier, that is the 1st engineering change to the 1905, and simultaneously, the 2nd change to the 1902. This is all too confusing, and N&J conveniently does away with this mess by calling everything a 1905.
What more can I say ?!
Regards, Mike Priwer
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handejector
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Mike,
I thought I covered that in the post quoted below.
I'm pretty sure I can see the gun on the right, so it has not disappeared. I can tell it has a round butt. I can tell it is a round butt revolver.
Mike,
Where did the notion of the round butt get lost? Can I help you look for it?
I always know what my butts look like.
Even a blind collector could FEEL the difference.
Is anybody havin trouble tellin which is which in this pic of two 1905-4th Changes?
{HINT} The one on the right with the Ivory handles is a ROUND BUTT!
Even simpler:
The revolver pictured above with ivory grips is a "1905-4th ROUND Butt"
Now, YOU know what it is, I know what it is, the parts guy knows what it is, the 1902 devotee/adherent knows what it is, and the N&J devotee/adherent knows what it is.
We use LOTS of terms that don't fit the catalog.
When was the last time you heard a Triple Lock called a 44 Military, Model 1908? Triple Lock is not a catalog term, but collectors know instantly what you mean.
44-1st, 44-2nd, and 44-3rd are not catalog terms, but they sure make life easy, quick, and simple.
If we go strictly by catalogs, the Safety Top Breaks are called "Hammerless Safety" early on in catalogs, and in later catalogs are called "Safety Hammerless".
I can hear it now-
"Sir, you do NOT have a Safety Hammerless! You have a Hammerless Safety!"
We often just say "38 Safety- 2nd" or "32 Safety- 3rd" and anyone who knows anything about them knows exactly what you mean.
Everyone in this debate must do what they want.
Tell me you have a 1902. Cool. I now know you have a gun with a round butt, circa 1902-2018. That narrows it down!
If I tell you I have a 1905-3rd ROUND BUTT, who got the most information?
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jebstuart
SWCA Member, Absent Comrade
I have a 1902 - 2nd, factory target with the dreaded SQUARE butt!!
Does that make me kind of a butt head?
Does that make me kind of a butt head?
jw mathews
Member
I am still waiting to see if anyone can provide a copy of an S&W ad or catalog issued between Nov 1904 & May 1905 when the square butt K- frame was introduced. The s/n range in that period was 58000-62449 iirc (books not at my computer). It is my contention that there is such a thing a a 1902 Square Butt because all 1902 & prior K-frames lack the screw in front of the trigger guard for the cylinder stop spring-loaded plunger which was introduce on BOTH types of butts @ s/n 62450 in 1905.
It seems to me that the COLLECTING fraternity has a legitimate need for greater precision than the early S&W catalogs. I have noted in an earlier thread that the catalogs called the 38 K-frames the "Military" model for the first decade of the 20th Century, with the "Police" designation added to the model name after many thousand revolvers had been made. The catalog "purists" seem to ignore this point, but per the catalogs, there was no such thing as an "M&P" from 1899 for more than ten years thereafter.
Mr. Roper's descriptions were recognized by Messrs. Neal & Jinks in their book, by Mr. Jinks in his history of S&W and by the more recent Standard Catalogs of S&W. I think it's sad that the catalog "purists" are unwilling to get with the program, because the resulting confusion doesn't help the newbies coming here to inquire about their revolvers.
It seems to me that the COLLECTING fraternity has a legitimate need for greater precision than the early S&W catalogs. I have noted in an earlier thread that the catalogs called the 38 K-frames the "Military" model for the first decade of the 20th Century, with the "Police" designation added to the model name after many thousand revolvers had been made. The catalog "purists" seem to ignore this point, but per the catalogs, there was no such thing as an "M&P" from 1899 for more than ten years thereafter.
Mr. Roper's descriptions were recognized by Messrs. Neal & Jinks in their book, by Mr. Jinks in his history of S&W and by the more recent Standard Catalogs of S&W. I think it's sad that the catalog "purists" are unwilling to get with the program, because the resulting confusion doesn't help the newbies coming here to inquire about their revolvers.
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