inquiry on M&P 1905 with odd front sight

[ddeanjohnson]

A guy has this old M&P Model of 1905 (Fourth Change) for sale. The serial number dates the gun to roughly 1927. The stocks are obviously much later, post-WW 2. What caught my eye is the oddball front sight. This revolver should have the standard "round blade front sight," or what I call the "half-moon sight." I showed the photos to one expert, who said to him it looked like "a cut-down, altered front sight." Well, okay, but how was that accomplished? I have a couple of Fourth Change revolvers from the same general era, and the front sight blades are much thinner than the blade on this sight. Can anybody shed some light on how this sight came about?

For comparison, here is the front sight on a 1919 M&P Model 1905 (Fourth Change):

More photos of the mystery sight:

 

[bmg60]

Hi
It just a reshaped sight as you take metal off ( move the cut back the sight is thicker back from the edge.
Jim Fisher

 

[Art Doc]

Nicely done, too. They usually look like hell after being cut.

 

[tlay]

Can you post a closeup photo of the rear sight area? Its hard to tell but it looks like an adjustable sight gun with the sight missing.

 

[gmborkovic]

Reshaped or cut, my VA butt. Look at the darn pics. Do you see silver solder ? And the muzzle has been re-finished. That front sight came off a Mod 10 barrel. Look at the pics again and quit buying your glasses at CVS
or at Sams Club. You guys never stood in front of a mill or lathe for one
minute. But, I like reading your commentaries. Mike 2796

 

[OFT II]

Measure the width. Is it 1/8" or 1/10"?

 

[ddeanjohnson]

Reshaped or cut, my VA butt. Look at the darn pics. Do you see silver solder ? And the muzzle has been re-finished. That front sight came off a Mod 10 barrel. . . . You guys never stood in front of a mill or lathe for one
minute. Mike 2796

I readily confess that I have never stood in front of a mill or lathe for one minute. Therefore I would be grateful if you could explain, step by step, what you think was done to this gun, including an explanation of why it would have been necessary to refinish the muzzle. Thank you. . . .

 

[ddeanjohnson]

Measure the width. Is it 1/8" or 1/10"?

I do not own the subject gun or have physical access to it -- I have only photos.

The width of the standard blade sight on my 1919 revolver was .06 to .07 inch on the muzzle side and .10 inch on the shooter side. The modified sight sure looks fatter to me.

 

[ddeanjohnson]

two more photos

Can you post a closeup photo of the rear sight area? Its hard to tell but it looks like an adjustable sight gun with the sight missing.

Here are two more photos.

 

[gmborkovic]

ddean J, glad to answer your question. Later. Answer mine first.
Is the gun in front of you?
Is there a silver/gold line around the base of the front sight?
Can you see file marks or emery paper having been used in the muzzle area?
Show some pics of the rear sight, better than the ones you posted.
Mike 2796

 

[tlay]

It was just the shiny areas on the rear sight area. It is a fixed sight gun. The front sight appears to have been soldered on. It is way too thick to have been made in that era.

 

[ddeanjohnson]

ddean J, glad to answer your question. Later. Answer mine first. Is the gun in front of you?
Is there a silver/gold line around the base of the front sight?
Can you see file marks or emery paper having been used in the muzzle area? Show some pics of the rear sight, better than the ones you posted. Mike 2796

The gun is NOT in front of me -- it is in a different state. I have never had hands on the gun. I have only the photos from the current owner.

 

[RKmesa]

Reshaped or cut, my VA butt. Look at the darn pics. Do you see silver solder? And the muzzle has been re-finished. That front sight came off a Mod 10 barrel. Look at the pics again and quit buying your glasses at CVS or at Sams Club. You guys never stood in front of a mill or lathe for one minute.

Mike:

That came across kind of harsh and I'm not sure that is what you were intending? I've looked at the "darn pics" pretty close (blown them up so that I could see them without my CVS/Sam's Specs ) and I do not see a silver line (I do see what appears to be glare from indoor lights). Granted, the closest that I have ever come to a lathe is walking past one or two in someone's shop and I am always impressed by some of the amazing work that talented lathe operators make look easy. I have several guns that have new front sights soldered on, all of which were on shortened barrels where the sight base and sight were removed and then soldered in placed on the shortened barrel.

I have to weigh in with Jim on this one - I think that it is just a reshaped front sight. Part of my reasoning is that it would be a lot of work to mill off the existing sight, cut a front sight off of a much more modern model 10, align and solder it to the front of the gun in question, reshape and smooth out the solder lines and over solder, then re-blue the front of the gun. All of this, versus just reshaping the original sight with a file to the profile that you wanted? The muzzle looks to be mostly in the white, with wear consistent with extensive holstering. Based on my view of the photos and the fact that most gun hacks look for the easiest way to solve their problems makes me side with the "reshaped" crowd.

The rear sight channel looks to be the standard 1905 4th M&P "fixed sight" configuration to me.

My $0.02,

 

[Alk8944]

The front sight shown by OP is simply a modified standard front sight of the period. Explanations (guesses without foundation!) given for the thickness of the sight are a bunch of hooey.

S&W front sights taper slightly from the base to the top, but they are of uniform thickness front to back in all periods.

Trying to compare the front sight of a 1919 K-Frame to the pictured gun doesn't work because the sights on the fixed-sight guns were changed in 1922! The sights on the gun pictured by OP is post 1922, even if it isn't from 1927 as he stated.

If anyone is interested in facts here you are. These are dimensions from fixed-sight K-frames (w/Standard barrel) from 1905 to 1962, which covers the entire gamut through the Model 10-4:

1) "Thin" front sights with "U" rear sight measure ca. .050" at the top edge. 1899 to 1922. Top strap of frame rounded.

2) 1922 to 1962 (10-4) sight thickness was increased to .085" +/- measured at the top edge. The rear sight notch was changed to "square" with the top strap being flattened along the sighting groove. This is the sight thickness often referred to as being 1/10", it is not! Only adjustable sighted guns had the 1/10" front sight.

3) 1962, Model 10-5, front sight on the standard barrel was increased to 1/8". The sight change on the Heavy Barrel guns occurred earlier.

Again, these comments refer only to the "standard" or "tapered" barrel. So don't point out that the 10-3 had the 1/8" sight in 1961, this is a heavy barrel gun.

Finally, to answer OPs question "I showed the photos to one expert, who said to him it looked like "a cut-down, altered front sight." Well, okay, but how was that accomplished?" Easy, it is called a file, one of the simplest hand tools there is after a hammer! Sights modified like this are very common.

Had to add this: "Reshaped or cut, my VA butt. Look at the darn pics. Do you see silver solder ? And the muzzle has been re-finished. That front sight came off a Mod 10 barrel. Look at the pics again and quit buying your glasses at CVS or at Sams Club. You guys never stood in front of a mill or lathe for one minute."

I have to agree with RKMesa! Not only was the remark harsh, it is also 100% incorrect. And, the muzzle isn't bright, it is simply a reflection. Even if it were it means nothing! It is easy to polish a muzzle if you want, if you know how!

 

[ddeanjohnson]

Trying to compare the front sight of a 1919 K-Frame to the pictured gun doesn't work because the sights on the fixed-sight guns were changed in 1922! . . .
These are dimensions from fixed-sight K-frames w/Standard barrel) . . .1) "Thin" front sights with "U" rear sight measure ca. .050" at the top edge. 1899 to 1922. Top strap of frame rounded. 2) 1922 to 1962 (10-4) sight thickness was increased to .085" +/- measured at the top edge. . .

Mystery solved! The reason the pictured revolver's front sight looks thicker than my 1919 front sight is because it IS thicker. I was comparing a "thin" pre-1922 sight to a (modified) fat post-1922 sight. Thank you.

 

[gmborkovic]

Im sure if we all sat down with the gun, we would all come to the same conclusion. We all are working off five pics. Mike 2796