Inserting yourself into a shooting can have deadly consequences . . .

[Jon651]

A CHL is a plastic wallet card. It has no value being worn around your neck, because it doesn't convey any message from a distance. I'm talking about a BADGE. That DOES convey a message from a distance. That message is "I'm not a bad guy".

A badge does not convey the message "I'm not a bad guy".

It only conveys the message "I own a badge", nothing more.

On the flip side, your empty hands up in the air do convey the message: "Please don't shoot me!" - and that's the message I want to send loud and clear.

 

[Jon651]

The badges are garbage, better off waving a white hanky. While here I doubt one would net you charges but might get you laughed at. Doesn't say good guy to me, says kinda strange guy to me. Sorry, call em like I see em. You would be much better off getting in a safe place or holding your empty hands in the air (or a white cloth) than spending time fumbling around getting some fake badge out.

I completely agree. Displaying a non-LEO badge during an armed encounter is like wearing a plastic yellow raincoat into a house fire. It only looks the part but provides no protection in that situation whatsoever, no matter how many you have on.

As I'm sure any plainclothes or undercover officer will admit - it takes more than a badge to tell the good guys from the bad...

 

[Mike_Fontenot]

[...]
You would be much better off getting in a safe place or holding your empty hands in the air (or a white cloth) than spending time fumbling around getting some fake badge out.

If the cops arrived, and I was NOT in a position to improve the odds of any innocent people (including ME) being victimized by a bad guy, I WOULD get on my knees and hold my empty hands in the air. I certainly wouldn't hang my badge around my neck in that case, or draw my gun.

Ideally, the badge goes on well BEFORE the cops arrive, and before drawing my gun, but after becoming aware of a bad guy's presence. For example, if I heard shots, but couldn't see the bad guy, I'd probably take a few seconds to loop the badge around my neck (while continuing to look around, to try to figure out what was going on). During and after drawing my gun, I'd be completely focused on the bad guy. If I managed to shoot the bad guy, and if he was no longer a threat, I'd re-holster my gun, take off the badge, and wait for the cops. If the cops were already there when I decided to get involved, and if I still thought I needed to intervene to try to save the lives of some innocent people, I'd put the badge on then if I had time, before engaging. That's the way I think about it now, from the comfort of this chair, anyway ... who knows what any of us would do, when it's for real, though.

 

[Mainsail]

A badge is issued to you by an entity with authority to issue one. If it wasn't issued to you it has no purpose.

 

[minconrevo]

The probability of a non-uniformed individual, civilian or plain clothes/off duty LE, becoming an unintended target went up when the patrol carbine became commonplace. Voice commands/communication can be more readily heard at handgun or shotgun distances. Stretch yardage out to carbine distance and it gets much tougher to effectively communicate. I'm not suggesting the carbine go away but raising notice that all involved in a situation such as this must change how they operate.

Several of my kid's are full time LE's. For the last 20 years I've taught CCW. I've taught civilians need to have clearly empty hands when LE rolls up. Also taught at that time the handgun needs to be secured in a holster, on the ground under a foot or otherwise under their control.

More details will emerge during the investigation into this event. Blame will be assigned (maybe) or shared.

 

[Echo40]

Do we really need to discuss the proper way to follow up a self-defense shooting here now?

After the threat has been stopped and it is confirmed that danger has passed, put your gun away and keep your hands where officers can see them. The officer(s) will take you into custody, when questioned, simply state that it was self-defense and that you are willing to provide your full cooperation, but that you won't make any further statements until you have consulted with your lawyer. PERIOD.

You don't need a badge, you just need to make it obvious that you aren't a threat when the police arrive, and the best way to do that is to keep your hands where the police can see them with no guns in or anywhere near them.

 

[waffles]

Do we really need to discuss the proper way to follow up a self-defense shooting here now?

Considering the way this ended for Mr. Hurley and some of the posts in here, I'd say yes, it's worth discussing.

 

[Echo40]

It has already long since been assessed that there's no way to determine precisely why Hurley was holding the AR in the first place, so it's pointless to speculate one way or the other, meaning that the arrogant and quite frankly disgraceful presumptions that he did so out of ignorance or negligence is irrelevant.

Besides, if one wishes to discuss such things then it would make more sense to discuss them in a separate thread, without the risk of making themselves look bad in context by speaking ill of the dead.

 

[waffles]

It has already long since been assessed that there's no way to determine precisely why Hurley was holding the AR in the first place, so it's pointless to speculate one way or the other, meaning that the arrogant and quite frankly disgraceful presumptions that he did so out of ignorance or negligence is irrelevant.

Besides, if one wishes to discuss such things then it would make more sense to discuss them in a separate thread, without the risk of making themselves look bad in context by speaking ill of the dead.

Nah, the thread about the incident is probably a good place to discuss concerns related to the way the incident went down, including ways to prevent it in the future. I'm sorry you find it disrespectful to the dead, but everyone in here agrees on the basic fact that Mr. Hurley did a morally outstanding thing in engaging the gunman, and discussing ways that the next Mr. Hurley may get to go home the next day instead of being shot accidentally by a police officer is a pretty worthwhile pursuit.

 

[riverrat38]

Really only a valid thought for bombs and things that might be bombs. You've violated that instruction thousands of times since it was issued, and probably several times this weekend. I'm guessing the Army ordered you to pick up a bunch of stuff you didn't put down. I know I have, and I haven't been blown up or shot . . .

Yes, we were required to "police up" cigarette butts in basic training. The non smokers were not happy about that. Didn't matter. If we complained, we were told that it was a case of mind over matter. "We don't mind, and you don't matter"!
Or, that they would punch our "TS" card. Supposedly, these cards were issued to all recruits. When you got screwed over, they would punch your card. When the card was full, you could request another one from the Chaplin.

73,
Rick

 

[Jon651]

It has already long since been assessed that there's no way to determine precisely why Hurley was holding the AR in the first place, so it's pointless to speculate one way or the other, meaning that the arrogant and quite frankly disgraceful presumptions that he did so out of ignorance or negligence is irrelevant.

Besides, if one wishes to discuss such things then it would make more sense to discuss them in a separate thread, without the risk of making themselves look bad in context by speaking ill of the dead.

Unfortunately we will never know the "why" of Mr. Hurley's actions. However, the one thing I think we can all agree on is that he was holding the original perpetrator's AR-15. That is not in dispute, nor is it speaking ill of the deceased. Most of us have already come to their own conclusions about this situation.

In my own view, the unspoken concern here is that the call came into the police as a person with an AR-15 who shot an officer. What if Mr. Hurley had been holding HIS OWN AR-15, which apparently would have been a perfectly legal thing to do??? That's the discussion we're not having.

Maybe we should?

 

[sigp220.45]

Simple answer:

Don't be holding any gun or gun-like object when the police arrive in the wake of a shooting.

It doesn't matter if its yours or the bad guy's or your old Aunt Agatha's.

Hands up, fingers spread, do what the nice officer says.

 

[Mike_Fontenot]

Simple answer:

Don't be holding any gun or gun-like object when the police arrive in the wake of a shooting.

It doesn't matter if its yours or the bad guy's or your old Aunt Agatha's.

Hands up, fingers spread, do what the nice officer says.

It's NOT that simple. If, at the instant that the police arrive, you are trading shots with the bad guy (and without any good cover for you), it would be foolish (even suicidal) to holster your gun, and put up your hands. THAT scenario is where a visible CWP badge on you might very well keep you from being mistaken for a bad guy by the cops.

 

[sigp220.45]

It's NOT that simple. If, at the instant that the police arrive, you are trading shots with the bad guy (and without any good cover for you), it would be foolish (even suicidal) to holster your gun, and put up your hands. THAT scenario is where a visible CWP badge on you might very well keep you from being mistaken for a bad guy by the cops.

Maybe, but I doubt a toy badge will make much difference.

At the end of the much discussed FBI Miami shootout on 4/11/86 the bad guys were trying to escape in a Bureau vehicle. The cops rolled up just as a big bloody Hispanic guy (SA Ed Mireles) was shooting two white guys in a car with a Kojak light rotating on the dash. They didn't shoot because he was wearing a holster and handcuffs. Our dinky little FBI badge didn't get noticed.

I was specifically responding to the post above about holding your own AR vs holding the bad guy's AR. In the Hurley case the bad guy was down and out. Taking cover and then going hands-up when the cavalry rides up would have worked out better for him.

 

[biku324]

Intent is invisible; actions are not.

 

[tops]

How many CCW carriers would not have noticed the holster and handcuffs and shot the SA. A very good example of one second can get you in more trouble than you can get out of in a lifetime. Larry

 

[Mike_Fontenot]

[...]
I was specifically responding to the post above about holding your own AR vs holding the bad guy's AR. In the Hurley case the bad guy was down and out. Taking cover and then going hands-up when the cavalry rides up would have worked out better for him.

We'll probably never know why he picked up that AR-15. Was he unsure that the bad guy was dead? If so, why didn't he just slide it well away with his foot? Maybe because he thought that could perhaps cause a discharge? Why DIDN'T he go hands up then? Did he think there could still be other bad guys around? Or maybe he thought that going hands up would look like an admission of guilt? Or maybe he was just unaware of the risk of being mistaken for a bad guy by the cops.

 

[biku324]

Or maybe he was simply stunned by the event. Shooting someone and seeing others shot isn't a common experience.

 

[Mike_Fontenot]

Or maybe he was simply stunned by the event. Shooting someone and seeing others shot isn't a common experience.

Good point.

 

[Muss Muggins]

Or maybe he was simply stunned by the event. Shooting someone and seeing others shot isn't a common experience.

I suspect he was also hearing nothing but a loud ringing in his ears, which could be problematic when combined with the sensory overload . . .