Interesting decision by the F.B.I.

[smokindog]

Hi, I'm from the government and I'm here to help!
http://batr.org/sitebuildercontent/sitebuilderpictures/sb_reagan_9_terrifying_words-585x455.jpg

I've always been of the opinion that until the hit rate can be significantly improved, fine tuning the projectile or the caliber is "noise" (I think the article reference 70-80% miss which we see all the time)!

 

[Hapworth]

Hi, I'm from the government and I'm here to help!
http://batr.org/sitebuildercontent/sitebuilderpictures/sb_reagan_9_terrifying_words-585x455.jpg

I've always been of the opinion that until the hit rate can be significantly improved, fine tuning the projectile or the caliber is "noise" (I think the article reference 70-80% miss which we see all the time)!

Certainly skills can be improved and should be in constant training, but the 70-80% miss rate may say more about the nature of a violent encounter with a moving target who's shooting back than deficiencies in skill set.

 

[Leonard]

Ultimately with any kill its shot placement and bullet construction but all things being equal the larger hole has an advantage.

 

[smokindog]

I agree, my point was we'd be better off trying to resolve all those issues first, be it training, weapon design, ...! I'm sure this next comment will "draw fire" but I'm not sure all LEO should be armed, but that goes for a lot of other agencies as well. Stricter qualifications would get my support. I'd rather see LEO be "de-militarized" and revamped for today's world. If under pressure you can't put more than 30% of your shots on target, well, let's look at other options. It's not an easy answer and I have feelings on both sides of the argument. Not pretending to have all the answers but ...

Please, before the hate mail, I support LEO, I just don't support many of the tactics. I live in a Town of 70K with full out SWAT armored vehicles, ... We are in a LARGE metroplex. Perhaps a genuinely trained and properly deployed regional SWAT MIGHT be required but we don't need to have all these teams. The money could be better spent on patrol. Just my two cents.

Certainly skills can be improved and should be in constant training, but the 70-80% miss rate may say more about the nature of a violent encounter with a moving target who's shooting back than deficiencies in skill set.

 

[petepeterson]

I have no doubt this will cut the FBI's budget allotment back considerably. Think of the savings the taxpayers will realize!

But what to do with the gazillion .40 rounds that the feds just purchased???

In all seriousness- why not choose a pistol (Glock 19/23, or Sig, or HK...) and let the end-user decide on the caliber? Would it really be that much of a logistical nightmare?

 

[lrmnut]

Great info good comments does anyone know the actual cartridge the will be using

 

[BAM-BAM]

158gr LSWCHP.............................. what goes around comes around!!! LOL

 

[Watchdog]

The F.B.I. is going to the 9mm round as their agents carry caliber...and their conclusion is particularly interesting.

I stopped reading soon as I got to the part that says, "Handgun stopping power is simply a myth."

I stopped being a soldier in the caliber wars at least twenty-five years ago.

That said, if I ever find an old Browning Hi-Power in the condition I'm looking for, I'll buy it.

But even with the Browning, I'd still stick with my .45s.

 

[federali]

Hit Rates

Hit rates hovered below 20% even during revolver days when most officers carried 158 grain RN bullets in their 4" guns. The problem then was a lack of self confidence in double action shooting and training programs that included a single action phase.

Hit rates should theoretically improve by lessoning recoil and muzzle blast. But, following that logic to the extreme, should law enforcement go to the .22 Short?

I own several 9mms and I've fired the .40. First round hits are about the same for both calibers but subsequent hits with the .40 take a bit longer simply because there is more recoil to recover from. Throw in a bit of anxiety or even panic and it is understandable while people and LEOs tend to shoot holes in the air.

 

[Hapworth]

Great info good comments does anyone know the actual cartridge the will be using

Forum member shawn mccarver's done some sleuthing trying to suss that out...

http://smith-wessonforum.com/ammo/351485-fbis-new-9mm-ammo.html

 

[walnutred]

What they are not saying is that there are a better selection of sub machineguns available in 9x19 than 40 S&W. You get back to the logistics of stocking ammo.

 

[Laketime]

I wonder how much money was spent on the study to determine the 10mm was the 'best' caliber for the FBI after the Dade county incident, and then equip them with 10mm's ?
Then to switch to the 40 S&W because the 10 mm was too big with too much recoil.
Then for another study to switch back to the 9mm ?

If it weren't for the female agents, and smaller stature male officers who found the 1006 too cumbersome to handel. Plus the fact that the low end .10 mm could be housed in a smaller case using a 9mm frame gun,the .10mm would be flourishing better these days.

 

[Laketime]

Given the sea change improvements in defense ammo since '86, the ballistic lessons of the Miami Shootout can be forgotten.

Personaly I would never carry a 9mm for defense.Unless it was an upgraded caliber to the .380 in an ultra compact pistol.

 

[dpast32]

>>> Does anyone know the actual cartridge they will be using ?

IIRC, at the present time, it appears to be a 147 gr. Bonded / JHP, of unknown mfgr. Personally, I can't see why they wish to adopt a ctg that equates the ballistics of the old 158 gr. .38 Spl.+P out of a 4" bbl. ? ( @ 147 gr. 9x19 = 950 - 1,050 FPS ) The FBI has always insisted on penetration in their handgun loads, & that's one of the reasons they prefer the 147's in 9mm. This duty caliber debate has been going on since the mid 1960's, with each side having their valid points. However, the law enf. Arena has been changing, both in composition of personnel, & with general budget concerns. These days, LEO's tend to be off all shapes, types, & genders. Many people just cant handle the larger calibers, where the 9mm tends to be manageable to the mass majority of trainees. ( Albeit with a bit of training. ) It's all been said before, "Put the rounds in the boiler room, and they will go down". Of all the 9mm's critics, the ONLY really valid concern is it's lack of stopping power, right ? With many of today's loadings, it appears as if the 9mm just might be what all the mid to large size agencies are looking for. It offers capacity, accuracy, controllability, lower ammo costs & it's size efficient in most of the pistols it's chambered in. "IF" the using agency issues one of the new generation loads, & takes the time to train it's people, I think the 9mm should do just fine, maybe.

ADDENDUM: I may be wrong with the 147 gr. projectile weight, as it appears that the FBI / DOJ may be leaning towards the Federal (ATK) 124 gr. HST loading for it's basic issue duty load. Personally, I like the Win. 127 gr. JHP+P+, but that's just me. There are currently a bunch of really good 124 - 135 gr. loadings available. As usual, it will probably be determined by the lowest bid.

dpast32

 

[jazzsax8]

Is it possible that a government influence peddler that stands to gain mightily from this, has just pulled off another drain on our pockets?

M

 

[rwsmith]

Couple of things

I don't know why a .40 cal gun that was BUILT to be a .40 cal gun would have any more wear issues than any caliber pistol.

The adage has always been 'bigger is better, IF you can handle it". Obviously the average agent couldn't handle the .40 well enough.

Why can't the agency adopt two pistols? A 9mm and a REAL .40 would cover about anything.

 

[Mike McLellan]

I attended a Hostage Negotiators class put on by the FBI in 1983. They were just trading in their 9mms for .40 callibers & 10mms. The science hasn't changed since then. Those guys just like to have new guns. (and cars, and planes, and boats, and suits, and sun-glasses…)

 

[radar1972]

Is it possible that a government influence peddler that stands to gain mightily from this, has just pulled off another drain on our pockets?

M

It's known in some circles as the 'Brother-in-Law Effect'.

 

[Nevada Ed]

A 9 or 40 is nice but...........
you can't swap ammo in a fire fight.

Now a 357 and 38 is different but they don't usually hold
10 to 18 rounds.

BIG is nice, most say .......but the little 357 MAGNUM is still
plenty of gun for me with a little 125gr JHP at just factory speeds.

With the right powder you can..................
"Cook and drop them" with just one shot at close range.

 

[Arisin Wind]

And yet, the military is looking to abandon the 9mm for something larger with more stopping power having found the 9mm doesn't put the enemy down fast enough.