Interesting decision by the F.B.I.
- Thread starter Protected One
- Start date
I've always preferred the flintlock. Where I live I can find suitable flints on the ground. I've yet to find a suitable percussion cap on the ground.
Matchlock. More reliable.
SuperMan
Member
Don't know where to begin....guess with caliber.
There is nothing wrong with .35 caliber guns in LE...they work...but there is an "if" and that "if" has proven to be velocity. The standard by which all other defensive pistol rounds are judged is the .357 Magnum using the 125 grain IHP bullet at a muzzle velocity of 1400+- fps which can easily be attained in a 4" barrel. Drop the muzzle velocity below 1350 and the street effectiveness has been shown to go down as we are now down into the high end of some 115 grain 9mm.
Using a 125 grain bullet seems, as far as shooting humans goes, to be the correct balance of enough weight for adequate penetration and attainable muzzle velocity for just about guarantied expansion. Most bullets between 90-110 grains often fail to penetrate deeply enough even when driven to significantly higher velocities and bullets between 140-160 don't usually attain the velocity necessary to expand AND they have significantly more recoil than the 125s....this is in both pistols and revolvers unless one is talking about something like the .38 Special or 147 9mms.
And this is why the .357 SIG has been so successful a street round. It runs a 124/125 grain bullet at 1350+- fps. The Texas DPS adopted the round in the late 1990s and in their first 8 shooting there was 6 one shot stops, 7 suspects died at the scene of the shooting and the last died in the hospital. One of the shootings required shooting through the door of an 18-wheeler cab. This was with the 124 Speer Gold Dot HPs. No 9mm load can run a 124 grain bullet much over 1250 and there are only a few 115s that will run over 1300.
125s with a properly constructed bullet like a Gold Dot will also hold together through hard cover like a door, windshield glass or sheet steel. 147 subsonics garnered the reputation of over penetration in soft tissue and under penetration of hard cover. This is nothing new as the .38 Special has been doing the same for decades before the 9mm 147s came a long. 158 grain bullet at 900-950 vs a 147 at 950-1000 fps...and the difference is?? I made this comparison after the FBI and many LE agencies went to this round after the 1986 FBI Miami Shootout and made the prediction this round would do no better than a .38 Special... I remember reading an article in one of LE publications about 10 years ago with the then head of training for the FBI. The interviewer asked him why the FBI was no longer using the 147SS and the answer was very short..."it had not lived up to our expectations". And that was all that was said.
Bullet testing..Lab Rat Mentality... Ever go to an autopsy...ever seen the the actual bullets they dig out of people... I've seen what at the time were some of the best "rated" defensive rounds that the recovered bullet looked like it could have been reloaded. And I've seen others that the "experts" said could never work well because they fragmented in their test media perfectly expanded...why...
Start with the test media....I know of no normal human being made up of 18" of homogenous material. Unless you are obese you can poke yourself in the rib area and there is 1-2" of meat between you and the bones...and then what is one the other side...a large cavity filled not with ballistic gelatin but moisture and air filled lungs which a bullet without adequate velocity to expand the lead/jacket will pass through the same size it entered... If the bullet isn't violently expanding at this point it isn't going to do any damage beyond the permanent wound cavity it made.
A 150# deer isn't much different than a 150# human in the amount of meat in the chest area. Last year one of my hunting partners shot a nice doe that was 110# dressed through the lungs broadside at 30 yards. The bullet was a 158 Hornady XTP out of a 6.5" S&W 27-2 at probably 1300-1400 fps. The bullet hit the deer just behind the shoulder just about square center through the lungs. The deer ran directly towards his tree stand and then turned strait away as it passed under the tree. The next shot DA broke a front leg and the deer went down about 15 yards from the tree. As it tried to get up the next shot was between the shoulder blades into the spine. The initial round had been been complete penetration with no indication of expansion through the lungs...just a small hole out the other side. Deer was dead on its feet...just like Platt was in the FBI shooting...but dead isn't want you want, you want down....now.
The other problem with Lab Rat mentality is they never as far as I have seen ever interviewed the officer involved in a shooting to find out what the reaction of the "shootee" was from the time of impact to the time of incapacitation. They deem as successful only the fact that the guy died, here he is on the table with one of our recommended .38 Special +P 158 LHPs nicely mushroomed inside.....and the rest of the story. When the suspect pointed a handgun at the officers involved both fired. One hit one missed from 5 yards away. They both ducked out of the doorway from which they fired. The next thing they heard was a womans voice from a back bedroom..."what's all that noise out there...". The stootee, who was still standing in the middle of the livingroom gun in hand replied..."the police done shot me...". Then calmly walked over to the couch, sat down, put the gun down and shortly thereafter expired.... None of which was noted in the coroners report.
Then there are all the tactically successful shootings where the hostilities ceased but because he didn't die there is no forensic report. So there are tons of shootings out there that don't go into a data base somewhere whether hostilities immediately ceased or not....then it becomes what..."anecdotal evidence"...which because it doesn't fit in a test tube and can't be replicated has to be discounted.
I was in LE for 30 years, 11 of which were with Dallas PD in the 1970s and 80s. At that time we averaged 80 gun fights a year. The hit rate was 80+% and close to half of those hit died. At the time the national average was 29% hit rate. The last one I saw about 10 years ago was 19%. Rounds fired back then was 2.7....last one I saw was 7. No clue what it is today...
The bottom line of all this as I am sure I have bored you enough...no .35/9mm bullet at 1000 fps that will expand all the time will prove to have adequate penetration...and any 147 that will penetrate won't expand enough to incapacitate fast enough so the shooter won't stand a chance of getting hurt....except in a test tube....
Bob
There is nothing wrong with .35 caliber guns in LE...they work...but there is an "if" and that "if" has proven to be velocity. The standard by which all other defensive pistol rounds are judged is the .357 Magnum using the 125 grain IHP bullet at a muzzle velocity of 1400+- fps which can easily be attained in a 4" barrel. Drop the muzzle velocity below 1350 and the street effectiveness has been shown to go down as we are now down into the high end of some 115 grain 9mm.
Using a 125 grain bullet seems, as far as shooting humans goes, to be the correct balance of enough weight for adequate penetration and attainable muzzle velocity for just about guarantied expansion. Most bullets between 90-110 grains often fail to penetrate deeply enough even when driven to significantly higher velocities and bullets between 140-160 don't usually attain the velocity necessary to expand AND they have significantly more recoil than the 125s....this is in both pistols and revolvers unless one is talking about something like the .38 Special or 147 9mms.
And this is why the .357 SIG has been so successful a street round. It runs a 124/125 grain bullet at 1350+- fps. The Texas DPS adopted the round in the late 1990s and in their first 8 shooting there was 6 one shot stops, 7 suspects died at the scene of the shooting and the last died in the hospital. One of the shootings required shooting through the door of an 18-wheeler cab. This was with the 124 Speer Gold Dot HPs. No 9mm load can run a 124 grain bullet much over 1250 and there are only a few 115s that will run over 1300.
125s with a properly constructed bullet like a Gold Dot will also hold together through hard cover like a door, windshield glass or sheet steel. 147 subsonics garnered the reputation of over penetration in soft tissue and under penetration of hard cover. This is nothing new as the .38 Special has been doing the same for decades before the 9mm 147s came a long. 158 grain bullet at 900-950 vs a 147 at 950-1000 fps...and the difference is?? I made this comparison after the FBI and many LE agencies went to this round after the 1986 FBI Miami Shootout and made the prediction this round would do no better than a .38 Special... I remember reading an article in one of LE publications about 10 years ago with the then head of training for the FBI. The interviewer asked him why the FBI was no longer using the 147SS and the answer was very short..."it had not lived up to our expectations". And that was all that was said.
Bullet testing..Lab Rat Mentality... Ever go to an autopsy...ever seen the the actual bullets they dig out of people... I've seen what at the time were some of the best "rated" defensive rounds that the recovered bullet looked like it could have been reloaded. And I've seen others that the "experts" said could never work well because they fragmented in their test media perfectly expanded...why...
Start with the test media....I know of no normal human being made up of 18" of homogenous material. Unless you are obese you can poke yourself in the rib area and there is 1-2" of meat between you and the bones...and then what is one the other side...a large cavity filled not with ballistic gelatin but moisture and air filled lungs which a bullet without adequate velocity to expand the lead/jacket will pass through the same size it entered... If the bullet isn't violently expanding at this point it isn't going to do any damage beyond the permanent wound cavity it made.
A 150# deer isn't much different than a 150# human in the amount of meat in the chest area. Last year one of my hunting partners shot a nice doe that was 110# dressed through the lungs broadside at 30 yards. The bullet was a 158 Hornady XTP out of a 6.5" S&W 27-2 at probably 1300-1400 fps. The bullet hit the deer just behind the shoulder just about square center through the lungs. The deer ran directly towards his tree stand and then turned strait away as it passed under the tree. The next shot DA broke a front leg and the deer went down about 15 yards from the tree. As it tried to get up the next shot was between the shoulder blades into the spine. The initial round had been been complete penetration with no indication of expansion through the lungs...just a small hole out the other side. Deer was dead on its feet...just like Platt was in the FBI shooting...but dead isn't want you want, you want down....now.
The other problem with Lab Rat mentality is they never as far as I have seen ever interviewed the officer involved in a shooting to find out what the reaction of the "shootee" was from the time of impact to the time of incapacitation. They deem as successful only the fact that the guy died, here he is on the table with one of our recommended .38 Special +P 158 LHPs nicely mushroomed inside.....and the rest of the story. When the suspect pointed a handgun at the officers involved both fired. One hit one missed from 5 yards away. They both ducked out of the doorway from which they fired. The next thing they heard was a womans voice from a back bedroom..."what's all that noise out there...". The stootee, who was still standing in the middle of the livingroom gun in hand replied..."the police done shot me...". Then calmly walked over to the couch, sat down, put the gun down and shortly thereafter expired.... None of which was noted in the coroners report.
Then there are all the tactically successful shootings where the hostilities ceased but because he didn't die there is no forensic report. So there are tons of shootings out there that don't go into a data base somewhere whether hostilities immediately ceased or not....then it becomes what..."anecdotal evidence"...which because it doesn't fit in a test tube and can't be replicated has to be discounted.
I was in LE for 30 years, 11 of which were with Dallas PD in the 1970s and 80s. At that time we averaged 80 gun fights a year. The hit rate was 80+% and close to half of those hit died. At the time the national average was 29% hit rate. The last one I saw about 10 years ago was 19%. Rounds fired back then was 2.7....last one I saw was 7. No clue what it is today...
The bottom line of all this as I am sure I have bored you enough...no .35/9mm bullet at 1000 fps that will expand all the time will prove to have adequate penetration...and any 147 that will penetrate won't expand enough to incapacitate fast enough so the shooter won't stand a chance of getting hurt....except in a test tube....
Bob
Last edited:
zelda
Member
Bob-Your next to last paragraph shows lack of marksmanship in law enforcement. No amount of lab studies will make up for practice at the range
SuperMan
Member
The guy who missed was a second week rookie.... The guy who hit was one of my best friends and far from a "shooter", yet was his second successful gunfight.
A Sargent on the department in the mid 1970s failed qualification and was heading back to his substation to notify the lieutenant he had to go back for remedial training. He stopped for coffee on the way, interrupted a robbery on progress and killed the suspect...so much for quals...
Gunfighting is 90% mental and 10% ability...all the range time in the world won't help you in a gunfight without the right gunfighter mentality...
Bob
A Sargent on the department in the mid 1970s failed qualification and was heading back to his substation to notify the lieutenant he had to go back for remedial training. He stopped for coffee on the way, interrupted a robbery on progress and killed the suspect...so much for quals...
Gunfighting is 90% mental and 10% ability...all the range time in the world won't help you in a gunfight without the right gunfighter mentality...
Bob
Last edited:
sigp220.45
US Veteran
We still use 147 grain subsonic 9mms, and have since shortly after the 4/11/86 shooting. Not sure what guy you're talking about. Maybe it was Corporal Ed Sanow impersonating an FBI spokesman.
Last edited:
sigp220.45
US Veteran
I thought of that, but after some of the doozies in this thread I answered on instinct.
chaparrito
Member
Oh great. Once the word on this gets out there won't be any 9mm at WalMart again. The nervous nellies will buy it all up. Sure glad I reload mine.
David LaPell
Member
- Joined
- Mar 9, 2008
- Messages
- 5,541
- Reaction score
- 6,781
I'm curious why they didn't go with the .357 Sig or .40 S & W, but then again these days the Federal government does so little that makes sense. I agree the .45 ACP is not a beginners round especially for some in law enforcement, but it seems to me there are better calibers.
David LaPell
Member
- Joined
- Mar 9, 2008
- Messages
- 5,541
- Reaction score
- 6,781
As much as I hate to say it I have seen departments because of budgets cut down on range training over the years. I know and I hate to admit it that some of the worst shots I have ever seen wear a badge simply because many only go to the range once a year when they have to. Back when I could afford it and before I got hurt I used to shoot at least once a week if not more. Many of the guys during annual qualifications every year could not figure out why I did so well, especially since I don't own a Glock, never have. Nothing against them, not my thing. But to me most shooters don't even seem to have even the basics of sight alignment and trigger control. To me there isn't enough training, but the problem is too that the old instructors used to tell us that every bullet has a lawyer attached to it (no offense to attorneys) and with that you need to practice and not just dump rounds out like a 5 year old with a loaded Pez dispenser. Having ammo on hand is fine, but as Bill Jordan once said, Speed is fine, but accuracy is final.
They currently do use the .40 S&W. The .40 gives you very little in the terminal ballistics arena for a marked increase in recoil. The .40 S&W is snappier than either the .45 or the 9mm.
How often does that happen?
SuperMan
Member
coleslaw
Member
Last edited:
- Joined
- Aug 21, 2005
- Messages
- 8,005
- Reaction score
- 7,073
This thread, from 12-30-2013, discussed this same topic in detail, and included, in the first post, the rounds selected as well as the catalog numbers. See Post 1. The contract award was made in the late fall of 2013, so this is not particularly new news.
http://smith-wessonforum.com/ammo/351485-fbis-new-9mm-ammo.html
As to the fact that the military switching away from the 9mm because the 9mm does not work, remember the military uses ball ammo. The only thing that makes the 9mm a workable round for LE and self-defense use is the premium hollow points available to LE and ordinary citizens. So, let us remember, when discussing this, that the FBI is not limited to ball ammo, and to argue that the military reached a different conclusion is like comparing "apples to oranges."
Another item to remember. Expanding bullet technology has come light years since what was available when the Bureau originally adopted the Winchester OSM (Olin Super Match 147 grain JHP round) following the 1986 Miami shootout. Penetration to vital organs and creation of a big permanent wound cavity remains the same science and conclusion reached in the ammo study the Bureau did post-1986. There are now JHP premium bullets that will do things at pistol velocities unheard of in 1986.
For all of the fans of other calibers, please take pride in the fact that the .45 never has to try to be "as good as the 9mm." Rather, it is that the 9mm and the .40 S&W try to be as good as the .45.
The point is that the improvement in projectiles that now makes the 9mm a more viable choice for LE and self-defense do NOT cause the .45 ACP to be worse, it just makes the lesser calibers better than they were, which, when combined with cost, magazine capacity, less recoil, faster follow-up shots, and less wear and tear on the weapons, makes the 9mm a more attractive option these days.
Two of my college friends are now in the FBI (close to retirement), and I have always admired the way the Bureau puts thought and study into a problem to come up with a repeatable, verifiable reason for their choices. My interest in this topic is that I respect their science, and as I do not have the ability or budget to do my own experiments, I enjoy the opportunity to use, IF I WANT TO, something that has proven itself in scientific testing.
I share Jeff Cooper's feelings about the .45 ACP. One friend who went to Viet Nam found himself in a firefight, and he ran out of ammo. The only reason he is alive today is because he crawled over to a dead officer, removed the officer's 1911 from its flap holster and engaged. A series of one-shot stops with that big, fat 230 grain ball round, caused him to recently tell me that he will never switch to the 9mm. And that is fine with me. I imagine Jeff Cooper would feel the same way, were he still alive to see the performance of projectiles developed after his death. That is ok, too, as his conclusions were made at a time when expansion was just not reliable with the hollow points of his day, and as we have all noticed, 9mm ball just will not get the job done.
I had little use for the 9mm prior to the recently developed 9mm premium loads, but I have given it a second look. And, it looks good. Is it a guarantee? No, but nothing is.
Remember the Texas Ranger's words to the woman who, after noticing that he was wearing his pistol at a dinner party, asked if the Ranger was "expecting trouble." The Ranger said, "no, ma'am - if I were expecting trouble, I would have brought a rifle." A pistol, of any caliber, is by definition, not really the best choice for a gun fight, but it is certainly more convenient than a rifle.
http://smith-wessonforum.com/ammo/351485-fbis-new-9mm-ammo.html
As to the fact that the military switching away from the 9mm because the 9mm does not work, remember the military uses ball ammo. The only thing that makes the 9mm a workable round for LE and self-defense use is the premium hollow points available to LE and ordinary citizens. So, let us remember, when discussing this, that the FBI is not limited to ball ammo, and to argue that the military reached a different conclusion is like comparing "apples to oranges."
Another item to remember. Expanding bullet technology has come light years since what was available when the Bureau originally adopted the Winchester OSM (Olin Super Match 147 grain JHP round) following the 1986 Miami shootout. Penetration to vital organs and creation of a big permanent wound cavity remains the same science and conclusion reached in the ammo study the Bureau did post-1986. There are now JHP premium bullets that will do things at pistol velocities unheard of in 1986.
For all of the fans of other calibers, please take pride in the fact that the .45 never has to try to be "as good as the 9mm." Rather, it is that the 9mm and the .40 S&W try to be as good as the .45.
The point is that the improvement in projectiles that now makes the 9mm a more viable choice for LE and self-defense do NOT cause the .45 ACP to be worse, it just makes the lesser calibers better than they were, which, when combined with cost, magazine capacity, less recoil, faster follow-up shots, and less wear and tear on the weapons, makes the 9mm a more attractive option these days.
Two of my college friends are now in the FBI (close to retirement), and I have always admired the way the Bureau puts thought and study into a problem to come up with a repeatable, verifiable reason for their choices. My interest in this topic is that I respect their science, and as I do not have the ability or budget to do my own experiments, I enjoy the opportunity to use, IF I WANT TO, something that has proven itself in scientific testing.
I share Jeff Cooper's feelings about the .45 ACP. One friend who went to Viet Nam found himself in a firefight, and he ran out of ammo. The only reason he is alive today is because he crawled over to a dead officer, removed the officer's 1911 from its flap holster and engaged. A series of one-shot stops with that big, fat 230 grain ball round, caused him to recently tell me that he will never switch to the 9mm. And that is fine with me. I imagine Jeff Cooper would feel the same way, were he still alive to see the performance of projectiles developed after his death. That is ok, too, as his conclusions were made at a time when expansion was just not reliable with the hollow points of his day, and as we have all noticed, 9mm ball just will not get the job done.
I had little use for the 9mm prior to the recently developed 9mm premium loads, but I have given it a second look. And, it looks good. Is it a guarantee? No, but nothing is.
Remember the Texas Ranger's words to the woman who, after noticing that he was wearing his pistol at a dinner party, asked if the Ranger was "expecting trouble." The Ranger said, "no, ma'am - if I were expecting trouble, I would have brought a rifle." A pistol, of any caliber, is by definition, not really the best choice for a gun fight, but it is certainly more convenient than a rifle.
First rule of a gunfight: Bring a gun.
I think the origin of that misconception....
I think this misconception exists for a few reasons. Many feel that a 1911 is the only 'real' gun out there. Also, when tuned it is widely used for precision bulls eye shooting. There are and have been scads of competitors with the .45. There's no argument that it IS a proven round but it takes more than a little practice to master, which most people aren't willing to put in. I'm not a great shooter, but I can make fist sized groups at 10-15 yards with my 9mm which ought to cover any LIKELY SD situation.
I think this misconception exists for a few reasons. Many feel that a 1911 is the only 'real' gun out there. Also, when tuned it is widely used for precision bulls eye shooting. There are and have been scads of competitors with the .45. There's no argument that it IS a proven round but it takes more than a little practice to master, which most people aren't willing to put in. I'm not a great shooter, but I can make fist sized groups at 10-15 yards with my 9mm which ought to cover any LIKELY SD situation.
Last edited:
LEOs and the FBI
Those two entities have more REAL firearms experience as used on the streets of this country than anybody. We don't live in a military environment (yet
) Therefore I listen to anything they have to say and feel that it would be stupid not to. However, I'm not obligated to follow their lead to the letter and automatically adopt for myself any weapon and cartridge these guys use. I'm not a small person so I don't have to shy away from the heavier recoilers. But I also know what I can shoot best in a pinch.
Those two entities have more REAL firearms experience as used on the streets of this country than anybody. We don't live in a military environment (yet
) Therefore I listen to anything they have to say and feel that it would be stupid not to. However, I'm not obligated to follow their lead to the letter and automatically adopt for myself any weapon and cartridge these guys use. I'm not a small person so I don't have to shy away from the heavier recoilers. But I also know what I can shoot best in a pinch.
Last edited:
Similar threads
