Interesting decision by the F.B.I.

[rwsmith]

OH MY LORD......

This whole article starts out based on flawed logic. Penetration is not the most important factor in defensive shooting, accuracy is. They treat all hits the same, whether it is in the little finger or the heart. That completely invalidates their conclusion. Find a rare study that only considers shots that are well placed and you'll be amazed how much higher the stoppage percentage is.

Do you realize what you are saying? You are implying that buying a bigger gun is not as important as TRAINING and PRACTICE. We in the US want our machinery to do all of our work for us. With us, it's about the equipment. If you put out your dough at the LGS you've got all the protection you'll ever need. Just owning it makes you a dangerous person to deal with.

 

[rwsmith]

I think the logic is still off......

That's all good, but there is no such thing as a "well placed shot". Even a head shot can be deflected by bone or even flesh. There is not a 100% guarantee of exactly how a bullet will react when it hits flesh and bone regardless of the caliber. The "spray mentality" you describe is ridiculous. It's simply smarter to have a few extra shots available to get the job done if needed.

What has a better chance of stopping someone? A shot to the head or chest that is deflected by bone or a hit in the arm that is deflected by bone? I think there is a well placed shot, which is in your vitals, neck or head. If somebody is to be STOPPED, it isn't as effective to shoot off their fingers and toes as is a hit in a vital area.

 

[Lycan]

What has a better chance of stopping someone? A shot to the head or chest that is deflected by bone or a hit in the arm that is deflected by bone? I think there is a well placed shot, which is in your vitals, neck or head. If somebody is to be STOPPED, it isn't as effective to shoot off their fingers and toes as is a hit in a vital area.

And when they put up their arms to protect themselves and your well placed head shot is deflected by forearm what then? People don't pose to be shot or let you take aim. The perfect shot in self defense situations does not exist.

 

[CoMF]

I'm a few days late to the discussion, but good on them. In well-engineered loadings, the 9mm was never "inadequate" to begin with.

 

[zelda]

As a beginner l started shooting my PaPa's .45 at age 7 with Dad standing behind me. l shot my first 9mm after joining the Army out of high school in 1988.
As for 'stopping power', l remember being in Kroger one day when some kid snatched a purse from a buggy. The idiot ran past me on the sugar aisle and a stocker putting up 2 lb bags caught the thief squarely in the back at about 15ft with one. lt was a one shot stop as the purse snatcher went sprawling.

 

[nixpap]

If you need 17 more, your probably dead. A well placed shot from a .45 beats the "spray and pray" mentality of the 9mm crowd. Why do you think the M-16 was made to shot 3 rounds only?

painting fans of 9mm with one brush is the same as saying fans of the 45 have a size issue. Bottom line is still shot placement.

 

[Skeetr57]

Back in 1973 or so I attended a seminar on Bomb Disposal at the FBI Academy. One of the attendees was an inspector from the Philadelphia PD. In addition to the Bomb Squad, the Stakeout squad was under his supervision, and he was also talking about their experiences and selection of firearms. He related how they had gone from .38 special to .45 to .357 Mag. but finally returned to .38 special because the officers didn't hit nearly as well with the heavier calibers, and they had decided that a hit with a .38 was much more effective than a miss with a more powerful round.

 

[rwsmith]

That's not what I said...

And when they put up their arms to protect themselves and your well placed head shot is deflected by forearm what then? People don't pose to be shot or let you take aim. The perfect shot in self defense situations does not exist.

I never said a perfect shot in self defense situations existed. Neither did I suggest that any shot could not be deflected. By bone or anything else. I'm just saying that a shot in the vitals is better than a shot in the arm whether it's deflected or not.

To answer '.....what then?' I keep shooting. I've never counted on a one shot drop no matter what the caliber is because If I ever have to pull the trigger once I'll pull it as long as it takes.

I'm not trying to be snotty, really. I'm just trying to clear through the murk and not lose sight of the basics.

 

[rwsmith]

This is an argument......

As a beginner l started shooting my PaPa's .45 at age 7 with Dad standing behind me. l shot my first 9mm after joining the Army out of high school in 1988.
As for 'stopping power', l remember being in Kroger one day past me on the sugar aisle and a stocker putting up 2 lb bags caught the thief squarely in the back at about 15ft with one. lt was a one shot stop as the purse snatcher went sprawling.

High mass at low velocity vs. low mass at high velocity. This story suggests that the former is better.

 

[smokindog]

And then there was this

Let's All Go To The Lobby (1957) - YouTube

 

[Skeetr57]

A bullet deflected by bone can just as well be deflected to a more vital area than not. One guy that I knew was an FBI agent who was in a shoot out in his first field assignment, and shot the bad guy in the right hip with his issue .38 special. The bullet deflected off the pelvic bone upward through the chest cavity and the heart before exiting through the left shoulder. A bad shot turned into a good shot due to deflection.

 

[Lycan]

A bullet deflected by bone can just as well be deflected to a more vital area than not. One guy that I knew was an FBI agent who was in a shoot out in his first field assignment, and shot the bad guy in the right hip with his issue .38 special. The bullet deflected off the pelvic bone upward through the chest cavity and the heart before exiting through the left shoulder. A bad shot turned into a good shot due to deflection.

It still shows that there is no way to completely predict how a bullet will react when it hits clothing or flesh. There are just as many if not more similar stories where a bullet didn't even make it through clothing or was deflected by a forearm regardless of the caliber. Then again, sometimes it works like it is supposed to and hits the mark. In the case you described, the "perfect shot" happened from a misplaced shot. Again showing there is no such thing as a perfect shot at all. I'd still rather have a few extra shots if needed even if the first shot accidentally gets the job done.

 

[DR505]

Bullets do odd things...I was on a scene where a very large and strong young man was hit in the collar bone with a .380 ACP fired by his cousin during an argument. The bullet bounced off the bone and went stright into his heart. The young man expired on the spot.

A local cop friend of mine was involved in a bank robbery shootout where the bad guy took 14 good torso hits from a .40 S&W (165 grain) and lived to tell about the experience.

 

[rwsmith]

Madre et Dios....

One guy that I knew was an FBI agent who was in a shoot out in his first field assignment, and shot the bad guy in the right hip with his issue .38 special. The bullet deflected off the pelvic bone upward through the chest cavity and the heart before exiting through the left shoulder. A bad shot turned into a good shot due to deflection.

(crosses self)


PS I heard that .38s lack penetration.

 

[Skeetr57]

Another tale of deflection. My father worked 24 years for the local sheriff's department, and while he was there, there was an attempted escape. A prisoner managed to get a piece of pipe loose from the plumbing in his cell, and enticed the jailer into the cell block, hit him with the pipe and made a break for it. When the escapee went through the booking area, he passed another prisoner, a trustee who was working as a janitor. The trustee picked up a pistol from the drawer where they were placed by officers before going into the cell block, and shot the escapee before he reached the outer gate. Upon examination, the man was found to be shot near the spine, with the bullet exiting below the sternum. The coroner had a gun and fishing store about 500 yards from the jail, and he was sent for. The coroner upon his arrival examined the "body" and discovered the man was still alive, so he was taken to the hospital, but was back in his cell by the next day. It was discovered that the bullet, after entering his back, had followed a rib around his chest and exited in the front, with only minor damage.

 

[Boge]

...When the escapee went through the booking area, he passed another prisoner, a trustee who was working as a janitor. The trustee picked up a pistol from the drawer where they were placed by officers before going into the cell block, and shot the escapee before he reached the outer gate...

Did they then deputize the trustee?

 

[ImprovedModel56Fan]

I wonder how much money was spent on the study to determine the 10mm was the 'best' caliber for the FBI after the Dade county incident, and then equip them with 10mm's ?
Then to switch to the 40 S&W because the 10 mm was too big with too much recoil.
Then for another study to switch back to the 9mm ?

Good point. But it didn't cost the FBI anything. The money came from taxpayers, who otherwise would have just pissed it away on beer, anyway.

 

[DR505]

I wonder how much money was spent on the study to determine the 10mm was the 'best' caliber for the FBI after the Dade county incident, and then equip them with 10mm's ?
Then to switch to the 40 S&W because the 10 mm was too big with too much recoil.
Then for another study to switch back to the 9mm ?

Well, the Ballistics testing is a continuous endeavor for the FBI. Equipment evolves over time. Would you have been happy had the FBI merely kept as their service weapon and ammunition whatever was available back in 1908?

Good point. But it didn't cost the FBI anything. The money came from taxpayers, who otherwise would have just pissed it away on beer, anyway.

The Government does not make money, period. Every expenditure by the USG is taxpayer funded.

FWIW - When Louis Freeh took the reigns at the FBI, he increased the drinking age of Special Agents from 21 to 57, the age of mandatory retirement. Under DOJ policy, food, drink, liquor, etc. is a prohibited purchase item. So we can't drink!

 

[MikeChandler]

I have a 9mm EDC, but also a M&P .40, so just to note I don't really have a bias to either... That being said:

The 9mm arguments are self-contradicting. If the 9mm is better because of shot placement and recoil... AND if the .40 ballistics can be matched by heavier +p+ 9mm ammo... Then you are left with a smaller frame gun experiencing higher recoil affecting shot placement. As for the guns being beat to death... their 9mm handguns will be reduced to garbage after shooting enough of that +p+ ammo to gain proficiency, which would be worse than simply mastering a .40 S&W that was designed ground up to fire that cartridge.

Furthermore, the reason that the FBI needed a new cartridge wasn't even addressed by the article (as I am sure the new politics are ignoring it). The reason was barrier penetration, which the .40 excels at. In the Miami Dade FBI shootout the bad guys were shooting from inside, then behind, an automobile. 9mm has lousy penetration after traveling through a car door or windshield. Their goal was to find a cartridge that would prove adequate penetration after passing through a barrier. That was the 10mm (which shortened down became the .40).

None of this surprises me however - our leadership in Washington is probably the worst in the history of the USA.

 

[fdw]

Good article, thanks for posting. I own multiple calibers (38, 40, 357, 45) but I always shoot my m&p 9 the best.

Now, for target I'm more accurate with my 45 but for fast, repeating shots to an 8 inch target 10-30 feet away, I always perform better with my 9 .

And that's what I'm looking for, 18 rounds on target as quickly as I can fire, my 9 gets me there...