Interesting decision by the F.B.I.

[PALADIN85020]

I think that the best caliber is what YOU feel competent to shoot, and within that spectrum, whatever makes the biggest hole in the process of penetration to vital organs makes the most sense. You will also need to be able to properly manipulate the gun you choose.

Me?

1911
Glock 21
H&K USP
Sig-Sauer 220
Kahr CW

Any of these launching pads will do, depending on my mood and mode of dress at the moment.

Their common thread?

Federal .45 ACP 230-grain HydraShok ammo. It has a proven track record.

Probably most perps don't pause for moment to look down the barrel of whatever you point at them, but to those that do, the .45 muzzle must look like the Holland Tunnel to 'em. When just the sight of a gun can act as a deterrent, I'd like that sight to be a very impressive .45 caliber hole.

John

 

[Boge]

...As for the guns being beat to death... their 9mm handguns will be reduced to garbage after shooting enough of that +p+ ammo to gain proficiency, which would be worse than simply mastering a .40 S&W that was designed ground up to fire that cartridge...

9mm has lousy penetration after traveling through a car door or windshield. Their goal was to find a cartridge that would prove adequate penetration after passing through a barrier. That was the 10mm (which shortened down became the .40)...

I have never seen nor heard of a Glock 9mm being 'destroyed' by firing 9mm +p+ ammo. I've shot a boxcar load of it myself. As well, there's a retired Il. State Police Captain who posts here who wrote of a S&W Third Gen that had over 80,000 +p+ 9mm rds. through it. What was hard on handguns was the hot .40 S&W 155 gr. as loaded specifically by Rem. in the past for the BP. It was a real 'barn burner' and a superb manstopper. It was however hard to shoot well for the non-gun enthusiasts.

If the FBI was purely interested in better hard surface penetration they would have went with the .357 SIG which trumps all in that category.

 

[Protected One]

Perhaps advances in 9mm ammo since the time of the Miami Shootout have been sufficient to make a return to the caliber justifiable. After all, it is a more controllable round than 40cal, and added capacity is not a bad idea.

 

[policerevolvercollector]

The level of interest in these threads always amazes me.

This should matter to about 12,000 FBI agents and a couple of hundred FBI uniformed police. We don't issue ammo to any other agencies. NYPD, Chicago PD, and the East Bumfudge Heights Sheriff's Office can still issue and carry whatever ammo they like.

This has nothing to do with small guys and females ("runts and *****" in the vernacular) not being able to qualify. After 21 weeks in the Academy, where a New Agent fires about 10,000 rounds, you can either shoot or you don't graduate. I was a Bureau Firearms Instructor for about 15 years - our people can shoot.

Its about money. 9mm is cheaper, its easier on the guns, and according to our ammo gurus it is just as effective as anything else. So why pay more? Its your money we're spending after all. And this is from a guy who paid his own money 23 years ago for a Sig P220 and has carried it ever since. (I just found my first paystub going through some stuff. I took home $846. The Sig was $533. The Mrs was not happy.)

Guys with .40s will keep their .40s unless they want to switch. New guys will get 9mms. Old farts like me and SWAT guys will still carry .45s or whatever has been grandfathered in. Birds will sing, dogs will bark, and bad guys shot between the shirt pockets will still fall down.

Current issue 9mm (yes, we have allowed 9mms since forever) is the 147 grain Gold Dot. I suspect it will continue. .40 is a 180 grain Winchester bonded JHP. .45 ACP is a 230 grain Golden Saber. 10mm (yep, still have those) is a 190 grain Federal JHP.

I have to carry whatever ammo they give me. Since in my case it is a big fat .45 hollowpoint, I'm fine. (Also, the price is right.) I'd probably be fine with the issue 9mm, too. Other agents are welcome carry the issue 9mm or pony up for a .40 or .45 ACP. But if you don't work for the FBI, why would anyone care?

Yep. exactly.

I'm issued a Glock .40 at the agency I work for & perfectly content with it . In about a week, we are switching to Glock.45s. That is fine too.

My brother-in-law works for a federal agency and been carrying their issued Sig 9mm for years now. He travels worldwide regularly and his employer prefers the 9mm based on ammo availability.

I've worked a lot of shootings and have yet to see a fatality where 10 or 20 gr. of bullet weight either way made any difference to the person shot. I've never heard a medical examiner say that the guy would have survived if he'd been hit in the same spot with a 147 gr. instead of a 180 gr.

Either the bullet entered a vital area and damaged the internal organs sufficiently to end the fight.....or it didn't. There is no rhyme or reason sometimes.

 

[rwsmith]

Explain???

"I wonder how much the study was biased toward lighter calibers that men and women can shoot."


A great point, one brought up about 115 years ago....

I don't get this. What happened in 1900 or thereabouts?

 

[brucev]

Been shooting various handguns since about 1980, mostly .38/.357, .45ACP and 9mm. Later added .44 Mag. A few years ago started shooting .44 Spec.

Have never shot a human being and hope never to be involved in any sort of incident where such a tragedy occurs. Have been shot at once while walking rounds one night in a shipyard as a unarmed security guard. The folks doing the shooting hit nothing but the building behind me and some dredging pipe. I don't remember being impressed with their marksmanship or their choice of firearms or caliber. I do remember my number one concern was to put as much distance between them and myself as possible and to get behind something solid. That incident was the reason I bought my first handgun.

I have used handguns to kill various game animals. I have been present when handguns have been used to kill game animals. Some were various deer that we had to track after someone wounded the animal. Shots have all been at close range... never more than ten yards. Head shots with .22 LR and .38 Special using plain Jane 158 gr. LRN have been immediately effective. Body shots with .38 Special and .357 Magnum using JHP's have been immediately effective. I've not been around anyone who ever used a larger caliber for backup. Most of the fellows with whom I hunt are just regular guys. They carry on their hip what is otherwise in the dash of the truck or on the nightstand.

I have a church member who hunts hogs the way some folks hunt bargains at yard sales. He is out in the woods w/ his dogs just about ever week. He has shot a pile of hogs. He uses a Ruger Mk. II w/ whatever .22 LR ammo he can find when he's got a hog in a trap. He also uses a S&W Victory .38 Special with 158 gr. LRN ammunition when chasing hogs w/ the dogs. He is a excellent shot. And he always shoots up close, like I said never more than maybe 10 yards away. In our area the hogs are not monsters. Occasionally you will see one that will be over 200 lbs., but mostly they are not over 200lb. If you can keep us with him in the woods, it's a real show when he pulls that gun and starts shooting. When he pulls that pistol you can bet something is about to go down for the count. If he has to shoot more than once, its a rarity.

I typically carry a M-1 Garand loaded with a clip of whatever .30-06 ammo I have on hand. On time in a pinch I had to use M-2 ball. Amazing how effective that stuff is on hogs. Whatever got shot dropped like a sack of potatoes. He thinks I am using to much gun. I think if I could shoot under pressure the way he can, I'd probably just carry a B.B. pistol. However, given that I am just a normal shooter, I figure I need something a mite bit bigger. So I carry something a little bit bigger... usually a .357 Magnum or a .44 Special. I've even been known to carry a .45 ACP. They all work just fine. My church member still thinks I'm overdoing things. Ah well, we all have our opinions about what guns/calibers to use. JMHO. Sincerely. brucev.

 

[Stephanie B]

FWIW - When Louis Freeh took the reigns at the FBI, he increased the drinking age of Special Agents from 21 to 57, the age of mandatory retirement. Under DOJ policy, food, drink, liquor, etc. is a prohibited purchase item. So we can't drink!

But as far as I know, none of the Very Special Agents have died from starvation....

 

[MTKTM]

I've been a fan of the 9x19 for quite a few years, and my favorite semi-auto carry-gun is a Springfield Armory EMP in that caliber, a scaled down 1911. Excellent gun. I tend to be more of a revolver guy, however, so generally carry some form of 38/357. I also keep a Beretta 92FS in my desk at work. I've never felt underarmed, but so far I haven't had to shoot anyone, thankfully!

I never cared much for the 40, although did use the caliber fairly extensively when shooting IPSC Limited. I love the old 45ACP, but don't carry my 45s, too big and bulky.

 

[Malpasowildlifer]

In all seriousness- why not choose a pistol (Glock 19/23, or Sig, or HK...) and let the end-user decide on the caliber? Would it really be that much of a logistical nightmare?

Great point. The National Park Service has done it since the early 90's with the Sig P series with great success. A majority of officers are not shooters so they choose the 228 or 9 in 9mm and have become better shooters, or at least can qualify. It is too bad more agencies don't do this.

 

[DR505]

Great point. The National Park Service has done it since the early 90's with the Sig P series with great success. A majority of officers are not shooters so they choose the 228 or 9 in 9mm and have become better shooters, or at least can qualify. It is too bad more agencies don't do this.

FBI Agents currently have the option of a Glock in 9mm, .40 S&W, or .45 ACP. Some SIGs still grandfathered in; also in 9mm, .40 S&W, and .45 ACP.