Is pistol marksmanship a lost art?

[Len]

Let me preface this question by admitting that the tendency to sound arrogant by asking is a real danger!

I shoot routinely at several ranges, some public, some private, usually employing a mix of revolvers and semi-autos. Most of these locations do not allow rapid fire. So people are basically required to be taking carefully aimed shots.

It seems to me that the average marksmanship displayed is dismal! The majority of shooters are blasting at targets less than 15 feet away, and are lucky to get one or two shots anywhere near the X-ring, much less on target at all. [Coupled with all the errant shots that pepper the walls and ceilings, you get the picture.]

Again, I'm no McGivern...and I know the current thinking is to practice "short," since that will probably be the most likely defensive distance, but....

I still remember the old shooter that really helped me out. He was a big proponent of starting short, working out to max distance, and then coming back in. A real believer in practicing at 25 yards, and doing it until you could get skilled with it.

On one "recreational" range trip he told me to hold on shooting, ran a target out to 25 yards, and told me to take a cold shot. "If you can't do that first time, you know what you need to practice."

He used to say that "if you train and score long, you will ace short."

Now granted, shooting at the range is supposed to be fun [among other things.] But isn't the point to get the bullet on target? Isn't the skill achieved by consistent practice something to aspire to? [Making the whole session a lot more fun, too!]

Are you seeing the same thing? What do you think is the reason?

Len

 

[deadin]

My idea of fun at the range is to run through a National Match course of fire a couple of times and, when I was shooting Free Pistol, to run through a course of fire of 60 shots in 60 minutes. (I usually rushed it and was done in 30 or 40 minutes.)
Unfortunately, when at a public range, I usually ended up next to someone whose idea of fun was how many rounds per hour they could get down range. if it wasn't at least 3 or 4 hundred, they went away disappointed....

 

[kraigwy]

I don't think pistol craft is a lost art at all. In fact I think it's improved over the years. Just take in some of the action style matches to see what I mean.

Go to an ICORE match, those guys are amazing.

As to past shooters, I don't know, reminds me of the saying "the older I get, the better I was."

 

[cracker57]

I know I lost it, oh wait you have to have it to loss it
Cracker

 

[old bear]

Traditional, pistol, target shooting as many of us remember no longer has the emphasis it once did. Today much of the emphasis is on defensive shooting, i.e. keeping a set number of rounds inside a 3" – 6" circle in the center of your target at 10' – 30' as quickly as possible. Today the main purpose of my firearms is to protect my family and myself if the need should ever arise; I spend much more practice time working on my S/D shooting.
As others have posted I do have a problem with shooters who run their target out 10 feet and proceed to do nothing but mag dumps with no concern where their rounds end up or who they shower with hot brass.

 

[LTC]

I have some of the same opinions as the OP. The indoor range at our pistol club has a steel backstop about 7' high. We have baffles at 7, 10 & 15 yards. they are all well over 7' off the floor. The backstop is at 50 feet.

The bottom 6" of the baffles have been shot away in some positions. We have bullet holes as high as 8' in the 10 & 15 yard baffles. I am no expert either but I can manage to keep all shots on an 8.5 x 11" paper at 50'. The average aiming height off the floor should be between 5' and 5'6" when firing from a standing position. How difficult is it to position a target and aim parallel to the floor?

It is disheartening to go to the range and find a shovel full of fresh wood splinters littering the range floor.

LTC

 

[mstuhr]

Hi Len

Hi Len,
I see the same things that you do at the range.
I also notice that police departments have moved the targets in and become more generous in scoring. I guess this gives a false sense of ability and allows departments to show officer Jones "Qualified expert" at the stray bullet hit a little kid in the head trial. This is not meant to be a insult or reflection on all cops. But most departments have those that have trouble qualifying, and would have a lot more if they had any expectation of proficiency at 25 yards.
I saw it in IPSC, and in some of the folks I have been around that switched from bowling pins and steel plates to PPC or bulls eye. Some of the fastest shooters fell apart at distance. Most all of the top IPSC shooters are capable of 25-50 yard accuracy.That's what separates them from the just fast guys
I think it was in Brian Enos book, that a person should end his practice with 25-50 yard groups, and practice what you are bad at instead of repeating what you have already mastered. I think that was good advice.
I think your old shooting buddy gave you good advice.
As far as the reasons, I'd have to guess.
I often read that most shootouts occur at 7 yards or under. I see that in print quite a bit and assume most folks banging away in close are in prep for CCW (Non IDPA) and feel a man size target at 20 feet or less is good enough.
I think CCW has put a lot of new pistol shooter at the range too. That might be part of the reason why.
Peer pressure could be some of it. Folks want to do what they can and not be at the range missing the 25 yard targets in front of others.
I know from years of encouraging others to compete in various disciplines that it is hard to get someone to start shooting in front of others because of their fear that they will look bad.
On the other hand, I have seen a small resurrection of bulls eye in the area along with some PPC matches popping up. I also run in to folks practicing for these and improving their skills.
I'd blame the CCW guys for what we see, due to their numbers and lack of interest in sports involving longer range shooting.
On the other hand I think some of them will graduate to longer ranges and more challenging shooting.
Just remember. All this opinion comes from a guy who in 1970 sat at the first pump your own gas station in southern MO and said "Pump your own gas? This will never catch on".
Have a nice week end.
Mike

 

[LL617]

how to improve

As a new shooter, what do you recommend to improve shooting skill?

Presently, I am trying to shoot once a week at an indoor range starting with shooting two grouping with the target out about 15 feet, then 25 feet, and then about 40 feet. I am consciously trying to maintain a good stance, a proper grip, and follow the basics of good gun safety as I take aim and fire.

I am also looking to find the plastic or practice bullets so that I can practice drawing, aiming, and shooting at a target at home--no actual firing in the house, of course.

What else do you recommend?

 

[bobbyd]

I wouldn't tend to call it arrogance as much as pride in accomplishment.

I am an old bullseye shooter who learned solid marksmanship fundamentals years ago and these are still applicable no matter which shooting exercise one pursues.

I too am amazed at the generally dismal level of shooting skills one encounters at a typical range where blasting away at 7 yard zombie targets and only hitting the paper 50% of the time is all too common.

I can still outshoot 90+% of the shooters at the range even with my aging eyes. ("The older I get, the better I was." would only apply if I could not still do it!)

Running the target out to 25 yards and chewing the center out of the black bullseye is still more my idea of skill than a high shots-per-hour score.

Shooting is meant to be a recreational pursuit and I guess it really doesn't matter...BUT...what does bother me is that the same observations seem to apply equally to police and security company groups that also utilize the range.

 

[johngross]

The first two times I took the wife shooting, it was standing with a two-handed hold. Once I knew she was comfortable with recoil and understood the fundamentals, it's now one-handed shooting.

No sissies at the Gross household. Both the wife and I stand on our hind legs and shoot like a man

John Gross

 

[Rule3]

As a new shooter, what do you recommend to improve shooting skill?

Presently, I am trying to shoot once a week at an indoor range starting with shooting two grouping with the target out about 15 feet, then 25 feet, and then about 40 feet. I am consciously trying to maintain a good stance, a proper grip, and follow the basics of good gun safety as I take aim and fire.

I am also looking to find the plastic or practice bullets so that I can practice drawing, aiming, and shooting at a target at home--no actual firing in the house, of course.

What else do you recommend?

I think what you are doing is excellent. The main thing is constancy. If you have a proper grip and stance then the rest will come with time. Of course if you can afford and have the time more shooting is better. But if not, taking your time and being deliberate is best. As in anything a little bit of good practice is better than a lot of bad practice.

 

[Retired LTC USAR]

I had nothing to shoot but revolvers to shoot growing up. I became, if I may say so, a very good shoot.

I feel todays shooters start off with the semi's, with little of or no trainig on how to shoot, and continue with the spray and pray mentatility.

Went shooting with some co-workers last week. One had a 40, one had a 9, but I hade my Model 42 and K22. I'm twice as old as they are and they were amazed at how well I was shooting.

Shoot my friends 40VE(?) Put a white target up so I could see the holes (hate the balck targets). Aiming like I normally do......fill in rear sight with front sight. Could not hit the white paper???? Had to bring it in to 5 yds, and figured the semi was shooting about 6 inches low from POA. Owner was happy just hitting the black body.

Trying to talk him into purchasing a 22 so he can shoot more and develop some skills.

Gotta know KY windage and elevation to be a really good shot.

 

[beach elvis]

I agree with the OP. Laugh if you feel you must, but one of my very favorite things to do at my private range is to shoot my revolvers at 25 yd.-size targets but out to 100 yds.

Do I expect to hit? No, but it doesn't stop me from trying my hardest. Have I hit? Yes. It's a fabulous way to really test how your gun likes a particular load and once you find the sweetspot, you just may surprise yourself. Is it practical? Of course not...BUT...I can tell you that if you spend an hour shooting at that distance, a target at 25 yds. seems like almost point-blank.

I truly love it.

 

[Smith357]

I agree with the OP, I'm no expert pistolero but I do enjoy eat out the centers of my bullseye targets at 10 and 25 yards with slow deliberate fire. My Model 14 with wadcutters makes it all to easy to achieve picture perfect groups. I'm still working at 50 yard groups but I can only hit a paper plate about 50% of the time, but to me that's rifle territory.

I have seen many young pups at the range in their tack gear with plastic wonder nines shoot patterns on silhouette targets at 3 to 7 yards. They often show interset in my shooting and when they do I will try to help them as best I can. To be fair, I think the problem is because of the lack of any sort of youth shooting programs. When I was a boy we had the Scouts, 4H, and even public schools helping to teach proper shooting techniques. Today all the youth really have is Hollyweird to learn from.

 

[Herknav]

I'm not that good of a shot, but I can consistently score "expert" on the AF course of fire. After the last time I shot, we were in the CATM building cleaning pistols. Like a dummy, I asked the instructor (in front of all my fellow students) how many folks in our class shot expert. Usually, there are 2-3 guys. His response, "Just you, sir."

 

[Steve in Vermont]

At one time my scores were important and I enjoyed the competition. Now that I'm older, with eyes less then perfect and arthritis in my hands (and elsewhere) I simply enjoy the fact that I can still go to the range and hit the targets with reasonable accuracy. For those my age and older I'm preaching to the choir. For you younger folks, someday you'll go from being concerned about a top score to being grateful you can still shoot. Pass the Advil, then the ammo.

 

[BLACKHAWKNJ]

If you read Ed McGivern's book you will see he says the principles of slow fire apply just as much to rapid fire, the only difference being the time taken.
Also with the decline of Bullseye and target shooting and the rise of "defensive" shooting too many people think as as long as you get a lot of lead in the air in the direction of the enemy you're bound to hit something.
Also I see too much emphasis on technology and gadgets, and not enough on developing skills.

 

[Bat Guano]

Sometime around 1980 or so I went to an NRA police instructors' training course; in those days the revolver still ruled. The class instructor was an old-time Chicago cop we nicknamed "Iron Jaw Jack". He stressed technique and accuracy with sufficient speed--bullseye quality with dispatch. He was big on "ball and dummy" aka "skip loading" as a means of developing trigger control and follow-through, and he convinced me.

I do a lot of it to this day with a Model 18 .22LR and Ruger and S&W double actions, and pass it on to anyone I teach. Not only does it work but it makes the ammo go further and cuts costs. I also believe in shorter, more frequent range sessions rather than massive ammo dumps and pointless noise.

Many days I will settle for firing only 15 rounds in a revolver, 2 mags in a semiauto, or one 20 round mag in an AR; all on paper and all on the timer. Out in the sagebrush I will stretch with pistols to 35-50 yards on steel or pop cans. I know some gifted shots but I have to work at each and every one I fire to hold up my end. It's simple--just not easy.

 

[2152hq]

Off hand, and 25yrd minimum.
We also set a target at 50yrds and one at 100 just to see what we can do. All off hand.

The only standardized sport handgunning I ever did was several years of Bullseye shooting. But it did put into my mind at least some simple minimums I'd expect of myself at different ranges.

Those people down the end of the range that shoot the crank out targets with their handguns are just doing their thing. It's not mine, and mine is obviously not theirs.
I really can't see a sillouette target placed at 15 or 20ft being pounded with mag after mag of 9mm or 40 or whatever from a 2 handed hold. Some even use the bench for a rest or the upright posts for their 'barricade'.
A few hits on the paper scattered about generally brings a smile of 'job well done' to them.
I'd suggest slowing down and learning the basics before running aginst the clock.
Most of their shot-up targets tell me I'd be safe from their fire at most distances if I was their intended victim.

A 50ft NRA indoor slowfire 10ring is about the size of a quarter IIRC.
That makes a good target & distance to see what you can do w/a handgun.
It ain't hollywood though and doesn't make great YouTube clips,,so most don't want to bother.

 

[DGT]

Len: I know exactly what you mean. I usually shoot on my own land but sometimes go to the indoor range which is much closer. I hardly ever see anyone with a bullseye target. Most everyone is shooting those bad-guy posters inside of 7 yards (and doing good to hit them at all) as they empty their guns as fast as they can.

Two thoughts occur to me. 1) Maybe it's a case of life imitating art, thats what they see on TV so thats what they think they should do. 2) I figure, if they are being safe and enjoying shooting, good for them.

 

[amazingflapjack]

Those were the days my friend...

I belong to the only outdoor range in my area. It began many years ago as a club that had use of a prison guard range, a couple times a week. They closed the range (?) so after several years of rangling, some of the original folks got together and put together a range. It is a nice facility, but it was frought with PC and EPA from jump street. The first set of rules was 13 pages long! It is a 50 yd handgun range where, until recently, you had to get a "special waiver" to shoot pistol caliber rifles. The original group were bullseye shooters, and that's ok, as long as there is some flexability about other things-and there are a lot of other things. I'm all for safety-I don't want to take one in the back, or anywhere else, but when you have individuals hovering over shooters looking for some infraction of "the rules" which might not even be unsafe, it breeds stress, which causes mishaps, as well as takes the "fun" out of your time at the range. On ocasion, I have suggested that the need to use a gun for more than paper perferation may happen, and that they won't be able the call "cold range" while you get your stance just right on the nice smooth concrete deck, make sure your grip is correct, and then, when a perfect sight alignment has been achieved, call for a "hot range," being sure to stay within ALL of the rules, and then procede to place a nice tight 5 shot group of holes in the asailants center chest area. You get my drift?

There are no gongs-there could be a bullet deflected, etc, etc.

I miss the days when everyone seemed to know the rules before they showed up. and there were places to shoot where you could try some different things, and have some safe fun. Oh-I know there are different competitive pistol competitions, but not evryone can, or wants, to make that kind of committment. My FFL is a LEO, and is in charge of the Sherifs Dept training, which, ironically, is held at the range I belong to. He and some of his friends have a 40 acre property where they can go and really shoot-out to 200 yds-gongs and everything! Flapjack.

 

[fiasconva]

Sometimes I think the high capacity mags lead to a lot of this. "Hey, I've got 17 rounds, why do I need to be that accurate?" But I see some really good shooting at my range sometimes and the people doing it right can really impress you.

 

[ChattanoogaPhil]

Down here in Tennessee... old half-blind grannies who have never held a gun shoot better when qualifying for their handgun permit than what the OP describes as the average shooter in his neck of the woods. What are ya'll doing up there?

I think you would enjoy our Bullseye Pistol Range. It accommodates about 30 and there's a lot of like-minded folks. Matches start in April.

CRC

 

[Rule 303]

Take a shooter to a range, set up a 25 yard pistol bull at 15 yards.
Give the shooter a double action revolver and thirty rounds of ammuntion. Tell him/her to shoot this course.

Ten rounds single action (five rounds per string), unlimited time.
Ten rounds single action (five rounds per string), 30 seconds per string.
Ten rounds single action (five rounds per string), 10 second per string.

Shooting this course to show who the pistol marksman are.
The course teaches the skills needed to shoot a handgun.
Sight Alignment, Sight Picture, Trigger Control, and Breath Control.

When I went to Basic Police School at 1310 L. St. NW in DeeCee we were shooting on the Beltsville EPS Range, the second time I shot it I was in Criminal Investigator School at FLEA-tic at Glynco, Ga.

Its just mind over matter as I had lots of bad habits to overcome for years of handgun shooting.

This was the qualification at the Treasury Academy in the 70s when most all Federal Officers carried revolvers. We shot Model 15s on this course. The course required that you score a 210 to pass, expert was 270 and above. If you didn't pass once, you could not proceed to the Combat Shooting Cours of Training and you were put on the bus headed back home.

Rule 303

 

[venomballistics]

I think one of the problems hindering marksmanship are the ranges themselves.
25 yards isnt spit for any proper arm and that is all too often the norm and 25 yards is also preached to be the holy grail ... I'm glad I didnt have anyone around to tell me of 25 yard standard when I picked up my 629 .. and pushed myself with it to the 200 mark while I had the resources to do so. As a result when it came time to qualify for my CCW I deemed it necessary to purposely scatter the group to avoid a single jagged, and unintelligible hole which would have been impossible to score.

 

[Kavinsky]

Well if you want to improve your pistol marksmanship first things first, shoot at something you can tell you hit everytime you shoot at it

and paper target arent one of them as you cant tell where your hitting after the first 3 savos at any range so I personally switched from paper to clay pigeons and the remains of them scattered at my clubs outdoor 25 yard pistol range

and well I can say with no ego I'm a hell of a good pistol and revolver shot now because I did just that as before I had no idea where I was consisitantly hitting during my usual 100 round practice run

and now I can easily pick off clay pigeons with each shot usually or damn close to them, regardless if I'm firing DA with the K22, the M29 or a semi auto like a glock 40 or a .45 1911 thanks to that plus a whole hell of a lot of snap cap trigger practice at home.

So papers for bragging, clay pigeons are for practice is the way I look at it


and if you cant find any clay pigeons or cant afford them just shoot at the berm and pick off the remains of something or a twig, hell use a tin coke can or something, something that shows you you hit it or you missed it, anything BUT paper.

plus putting paper on a target frame that you had to drag all the way overthere is a pain in the *** to begin with.

 

[David LaPell]

I can tell you that while I am no Elmer Keith or Ed Mcgivern I have been practicing handgun skills at ranges longer than most for some time. I have handgun hunted small game and I can tell you that most guys seem to think my skills are supernatural even though I am no where near what the old timers were. When I shoot my qualifications most other guys in the department seem to view me as some freak of nature. I know some guys who can shoot rings around me (and I have competed against them) so I am trying to figure out how good I am or how bad these other guys are.
I practice alot (well I did before I got hurt) and I find that shooting small targets like playing cards at varying distances like 15 and 25 yards and slightly larger targets at 40 yards (all offhand) really hones the senses. Someday I would really like to stretch the range on my handguns to 100 yards just for the heck of it. But right now I keep everything in the practical range. One thing I was reading in Elmer Keith's "Hell I was there" was that he regretted shooting game at really long ranges with a handgun and he felt that it should be kept as close as possible, something that does not get alot of mention with him.

 

[Hobie1]

NRA Bullseye

Personally the best sport using a gun that I ever had the pleasure of getting involved in.
Under the instruction of some really nice people, I not only learned how to shoot more accurately, but at least and probably even more important, proper safe gun handling and etiquette.
Just .02 worth from me.
Hobie

 

[Cyrano]

Shooting at Home

My range is a half hour drive away. I wanted to shoot more so I got a second hand Feinwerkbau air pistol. That thing is embarassigly accurate, and the cost of pellets is infinitesmal. I shoot from one end of the garage to the other, and have a makeshift backstop; the pistol has a lot of power and penetration is a problem, so I got an old 'Readers Digest Condensed Book' for a bullet trap, which works pretty well.

 

[silentflyer]

I am amazed how poorly the plastic and springs pray and spray actually shoot. Had a couple of them comment on my "obsolete" revolvers. Usually a friendly wager for ten bucks at a 25 yard bulls eye target, makes them believers, and I always offer them a chance too shoot my wheel guns.