Is staging a DA trigger becoming a lost skill?

[2000Z-71]

Went shooting today at the gun club. Ran through some drills coming out of the holster and reloading with speedloaders with my Smith 627. On the lane next to me was a Maricopa Sheriff's deputy shooting some impressive groups with a Wilson 1911.

While I was changing targets he asked what I was shooting and I told him. He then asked if it was some type of semi-automatic revolver since it looked my hammer was coming back to a single action position after every round. I had to explain to him the technique for staging a trigger on a DA revolver, he had never heard of it.

I was just amazed. I'm guessing he was in his late 30's, not that much younger than me. He had a quality firearm and he showed some impressive skill with it. Definately not the type that only takes their gun out of the holster once a year for qualification. Yet he was unfamiliar with staging a DA revolver trigger.

Have I just become a dinosaur or is shooting a DA trigger just becoming a lost art? It just seems strange to me learning to shoot on DA revolvers growing up that someone close to the same age finds it a foreign concept.

 

[LVSteve]

Many shooting classes frown on staging the trigger in DA. That might be some of it.

 

[scooter123]

IMO, staging a DA trigger is a "cheat" and not something to practice. You won't ever use this in a rapid fire event and it's better to train yourself to complete the trigger stroke in one smooth motion.

While I'll admit that it does make it easier to shoot a tight group when starting out with a wheelgun, it's a method that isn't advisable when you have to defend yourself. It will take more time and practice to master a proper DA stroke, however the benefit is that you're training like you would use the gun. In addition, once you've mastered a full DA stroke there isn't any real advantage to staging the trigger.

 

[NFrameFred]

IMO, staging a DA trigger is a "cheat" and not something to practice. You won't ever use this in a rapid fire event and it's better to train yourself to complete the trigger stroke in one smooth motion.

While I'll admit that it does make it easier to shoot a tight group when starting out with a wheelgun, it's a method that isn't advisable when you have to defend yourself. It will take more time and practice to master a proper DA stroke, however the benefit is that you're training like you would use the gun. In addition, once you've mastered a full DA stroke there isn't any real advantage to staging the trigger.

I have to respectfully disagree. Not a skill for general use, it is very handy for target shooting and games such as PPC. Once mastered it is indeed akin to shooting the gun as cocked in single action mode and I find nothing about it that would characterize it as "cheating". I've shot with a lot of guys who shot both ways and from personal observation I saw better scores shot with the trigger staging method. That's one reason the S&W's always ruled the PPC matches over the Colts . . . much harder if not next to impossible to stage a trigger on the Colt since it locks up only the instant before the hammer falls; a smooth straight through trigger pull with a Colt is a have-to proposition. If the straight through pull was indeed superior you would have seen more Colts on the line. I would wager you cannot shoot equivalent scores on a 50 yard target over someone of equal skill who uses the technique.

The technique has no place in use for defensive hand gun carry, indeed, that would be dangerous and ill-advised. But for target shooting it is like improved sites, grip, match barrels and match ammo - a tool in the repertoire to maximize accuracy in shooting games where it can be used. It allows you to concentrate on keeping the front site where it needs to be to reduce error without fighting the resistance of the trigger mechanism as much as possible. It is an accepted and allowed method and if you personally find it to be "cheating", then keep a clear conscience and don't use it. But I don't see it that way and find it to be a helpful skill.

 

[Bullseye 2620]

Back in the '80s I bought my first revolver -- a 4-inch Python. It was pretty well worn, since it had been the duty arm of a local LEO. I took it to Sandy Garrett at Northern Virginia Gun Works in Springfield, VA who many DC area bullseye shooters employed, and who I knew from my previous experience with him on those pistols.

I mostly wanted the gun refinished -- it needed it. But, Sandy asked me how it shot, and I told him I was having problems keeping the front sight motionless as I completed the long double action stroke. "No problem," replied the Master. "I can put a 5-pound double action pull on it."

So he did. This really did solve the problem. Now, before someone asks "what about ignition reliability?" I have to tell you that this weapon never failed to fire. . .even on factory rounds noted to have "hard" primers.

So, while I had trained to stage the trigger, and can do it consistently well, that light double action pull eliminated the need. After Sandy tuned it up, I used that Python to fire the Maryland State police qualification course, and shot a 287-10X/300 the first time out, and a 298-15X/300 on the second pass (firing the required 158 grain LRN .38 Special ammo).

I am really not a good revolver shooter. But that light DA trigger made it possible for me to empty my mind (not that there is much there anyway) and just focus on the front sight. One long, smooth stroke, and bang! Every time.

There are others here with much more experience than me, but it seems to me that staging the trigger is a technique suited to the range, but not to actual combat situations. It works, but slows you down, and at least for me, diverts my attention somewhat from where my attention needs to be -- the front sight.

A few years later, I traded that Python to buy my first Hammerli 208s, and regret it. I'm hoping that Sandy will build me another one before he retires.


Bullseye

 

[ImprovedModel56Fan]

But I don't see it that way and find it to be a helpful skill.

It may not be so helpful if, out of habit, you find yourself using it in a defensive situation. Especially if adrenaline changes some of your fine motor skills a little. Of course, if you only draw when you ARE going to shoot, no issue.

 

[Harrison]

Have I just become a dinosaur or is shooting a DA trigger just becoming a lost art? .

With all due respect DA trigger staging is an art that should be lost forever. It could get you killed. If you want to shoot bullseye/tiny groups, use SA. Otherwise, when shooting DA, the proper method is a single smooth pull on the trigger while concentrating on the front sight. Like everything else, revolver shooting has evolved and new and better ways have been developed.

 

[keith44spl]

Have I just become a dinosaur or is shooting a DA trigger just becoming a lost art? It just seems strange to me learning to shoot on DA revolvers growing up that someone close to the same age finds it a foreign concept.

Z-71,

I've been shootin' nigh on fifty years.
Revolver manipulation, to me anyway, is liken to playing a musical instrument…Some just strum along, others play the chords and some folks can pick each note to perfection. Not everyone that wants to excel makes it, while there are those that are gifted and others with tin ears, so to speak.

Anyway, staging the DA is a practiced technique. After about a thousand practice runs with that one revolver, I can do it every time with the pause just before the DA sear breaks is a micro-second that confirms the front sight is on the button. The money note, so to speak. This is possible for me, because I know how she feels every time. The honing of one's skills can't be replaced by slicked up equipment, only enhanced by it.

IMHO, double action trigger pulls are individual, some are extra smooth, others overly heavy or rough. Ya just got to learn to tune 'em to suit yourself...And never blame your instrument for a poor performance! ~Smiley Thang Goes Here~



Su Amigo,
Dave

 

[cowboy117]

I always stage the trigger when at the range-never do when i carry as i use a DAO revolver then.To me it's not a lost art.

 

[cmort666]

You won't ever use this in a rapid fire event

That's funny, I know quite a few people who do.

 

[cmort666]

Of course, if you only draw when you ARE going to shoot, no issue.

That's the only time I plan to draw.

For me, draw = shoot, with only a TINY window of opportunity to not get shot.

I'm not one for "banter" or posturing in a life and death situation. If I've drawn, it's because you've made it unmistakably clear that you need to be shot until you're no longer a threat.

I'm not staging to give you time. I'm staging to make sure I hit you and not somebody else. There's not going to be time for you to do anything, good or ill in that split second. In fact, I doubt anyone would even notice.

 

[keith44spl]

That's the only time I plan to draw.

For me, draw = shoot, with only a TINY window of opportunity to not get shot.

I'm not one for "banter" or posturing in a life and death situation. If I've drawn, it's because you've made it unmistakably clear that you need to be shot until you're no longer a threat.

I'm not staging to give you time. I'm staging to make sure I hit you and not somebody else. There's not going to be time for you to do anything, good or ill in that split second. In fact, I doubt anyone would even notice.

Well there ya go folks! +1

Su Amigo,
Dave


*Story removed by popular request

 

[2000Z-71]

You won't ever use this in a rapid fire event and it's better to train yourself to complete the trigger stroke in one smooth motion.

Ummm, no I do stage a DA trigger when shooting a rapid fire drill or stage. Granted some guns it's easier to do than others, my 627 is especially easy, both of my j-frame Centennials not so much. I also shoot IDPA events and stage the trigger when I do those as well. Most people I know do stage to one degree or another.

I had no idea I'd be starting a controversial thread. When I got in to pistol shooting it was in the late 70's/early 80's. I was active with the sheriff's department Explorer program and shot on their pistol team. We were all instructed in the same technique and our matches were basically the same course they used for qualifications with timed fire, varying distances and reloads. It wasn't bullseye or "target" shooting but more of a combat type competition.

Maybe ignorance on my part, but since I was trained this way, I just assumed that it was the way to master a DA trigger pull.

 

[Vulcan Bob]

Stageing is not a good idea if it's the ONLY way you shoot DA. DA shooting has many aspect's to it and one must become proficent in all of them to the point it become's second nature. I've been shooting DA only for quite awhile now and still have room for improvement!

 

[Wayne02]

I don't think it is a lost skill so much as an unnecessary complication in an already stressful situation when in the context of a self-defense type shooting.

Certainly appropriate for target/bullseye type shooting but not so much as a practical method for use in self-defense shootings.
It's best to keep things as simple as possible in this regard.

 

[keith44spl]

Ummm,
Maybe ignorance on my part, but since I was trained this way, I just assumed that it was the way to master a DA trigger pull.

Z-71,

I always thought of it as sub-conscious trigger control…

Or did Ol' Ed McGivern have it wrong all these years…I think Not.

Everyone's got their ways...I have to try to live by mine.


Su Amigo,
Dave

 

[Gutpile Charlie]

Double action staging is something that should be forgotten. Yes, if you are "playing" at the range....but anywhere else it is an invitation to a tragedy.

Very bad idea.

 

[Bullseye 2620]

Skill levels vary widely. I have no doubt that our friend in the Red River Valley is is better at this than I will ever be. For me, with a revolver, the light 5-lb. DA trigger I described above helped me enormously in learning that one smooth long stroke without disturbing my flash sight picture. I am sure that I could improve further with proper coaching and a lot of practice. Dave, are you accepting students at this time?


Bullseye

 

[mr.magnum]

everyone is an individual. just because something doesn't work for you doesn't mean that it should be forgotten. look at pro golfers or basketball or baseball players. are their swings and shots/grips all the same? no, but there are many who perform with similar precision and consistancy.

 

[keith44spl]

Skill levels vary widely. I have no doubt that our friend in the Red River Valley is is better at this than I will ever be. For me, with a revolver, the light 5-lb. DA trigger I described above helped me enormously in learning that one smooth long stroke without disturbing my flash sight picture. I am sure that I could improve further with proper coaching and a lot of practice. Dave, are you accepting students at this time?


Bullseye

Ah
Bullseye,
Jest get yourself about 100M rounds for the first settin' jest to start with, a really good early post war K-22 like a 99%er and practice. Don't forget a good cleaning kit...

Practice a lot of dry fire as well...Might want to pick up another K-22 for a back-up. Just running on my own exsperances, cause you probable need to wear at least one of them completely out. Proable need to set ya up with a good Brill type holster jest for style ya know.

Staggin' the DA pull also works well in hip shooting, as it gives the shooter time to steady his or her whole body before loosing the shot.

Can't take on any students as of right now...All the arm chairs are full up!
But, would like for all of us to get together for a little BBQ and friendly shootin' match.

You know if we could all meet up somewhere, where we could feast and shoot unimpeded...Ol' Jelly Bean and I could try out that 100 yard zero for CC revolvers DA. Ya know staged double action VS straight smooth DA pull through.

Talk about a hoot.
Well, got to close for now...Got a dozen or so PMs to answer.
Later. ~Big Old Smiley Thang Goes Here~


Oh, just as a side note; When I was a boy growing up, our Dad would buy us boys a brick of .22 shorts apiece almost every week as they were less than 2.00 a brick of 500 IIRC. And we'd sure wasn't bashful about shooting 'em.
Su Amigo,
Dave