This covers it from my perspective and experience . . .
Is THAT the active shooter?
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This covers it from my perspective and experience . . .
nachogrande
Member
MISTAKEN IDENTITIES???
I'd hate to buy it from an overzealous good guy. Like "too many cooks spoil the broth", too many sheepdogs/mall ninja's,/ Rambo wanabes/ or just plain well meaning law abiding armed citizens all in the same place/time, thrown into an adrenalin/over protective charged situation MAY result in some bad decisions & the old circular firing squad. Having once been reported as matching the description of a bank robber & having 2 gung ho LEOS in stealth mode creeping around my place at night & mistaking them for burglars, I can see how something could go wrong very easily.
I'd hate to buy it from an overzealous good guy. Like "too many cooks spoil the broth", too many sheepdogs/mall ninja's,/ Rambo wanabes/ or just plain well meaning law abiding armed citizens all in the same place/time, thrown into an adrenalin/over protective charged situation MAY result in some bad decisions & the old circular firing squad. Having once been reported as matching the description of a bank robber & having 2 gung ho LEOS in stealth mode creeping around my place at night & mistaking them for burglars, I can see how something could go wrong very easily.
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fredj338
Member
In an increasing antigun culture, being mistaken for the bad guy is very real. WHy my mindset is to protect myself & my own & not try to play LEO. You may save the day & then be shot by another ccw or LEO. My gun only comes out in an immediate threat, not in any preemptive fashion. Best way to not get shot by accident is don't have a gun in your hands.
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Your CCW does not make you a badge-carrying LEO.
Never draw unless you've identified the bad guy and that bad guy is heading towards you. Even then, try to get away.
Never, ever, ever, head towards the shooting as if you're some hero who's going to save the day. Dumbest damn thing you could do, and likely the last thing you do before you get lit up by the real LEOs.
As far as I'm concerned, the CCW is for the protection of me and my loved ones. Everyone else has the same opportunity as I do to get a CCW. They're on their own. Sorry if that sounds harsh, but I'm not about to risk legal and financial issues over playing cop. That's just reality.
Never draw unless you've identified the bad guy and that bad guy is heading towards you. Even then, try to get away.
Never, ever, ever, head towards the shooting as if you're some hero who's going to save the day. Dumbest damn thing you could do, and likely the last thing you do before you get lit up by the real LEOs.
As far as I'm concerned, the CCW is for the protection of me and my loved ones. Everyone else has the same opportunity as I do to get a CCW. They're on their own. Sorry if that sounds harsh, but I'm not about to risk legal and financial issues over playing cop. That's just reality.
Cross reference to the "Brave man...." thread currently going on.
I agree with that. Part of the problem is that some people have really poor judgement and part of the problem is that most people have no training, inadequate training or poor training, particularly in states that do not have a training requirement to obtain a CCW permit. However in some states with a training requirement it clearly isn't enough.
For example, I was in a local gun shop last summer when one of the customers explained that he'd just been robbed in a local convenience store. He was in the process of handing a $20 to the cashier, when someone reached over his shoulder, grabbed the $20 and ran out the door. The scary part is the local gun shop owner expressed his opinion that he should have shot the thief. There are big problems with this.
First, in NC, the use of deadly force is not allowed to prevent a property crime - and that's all this was as there was no weapon and there was no imminent threat of death or serious bodily harm - it was just a snatch and run property crime.
Second, the LGS owner stating he should have shot him was a concealed carry instructor. One of the guys who provides the required training to CCW applicants on a regular basis. The fact that he was giving out this kind of bad advice is pretty scary.
Third, we're talking about $20. I'm not going to shoot someone over $20. Even if defending your property was an allowable use of deadly force in NC, I'm hard pressed to think of any property that would be worth the stress and legal costs that would follow shooting someone over a property crime.
I made my points quite clear with both the concealed carry permit holder who didn't even consider shooting, and to the LGS owner who should have known better.
Another example is a friend of mine who drew his concealed firearm during a verbal altercation with a neighbor. She was a large and angry woman who ultimately charged into his yard with I think a real intent to get in a fight with him. This prompted him to draw his S&W 640, which did achieve the desired effect of motivating her to quickly get off his property - as well as the not so desired effect of having her call the police and report the event as an aggravated assault against her person. The responding officers confiscated his revolver and could have arrested him, but used some discretion and did not. What followed was a short course on when you can and cannot draw your revolver followed by returning his revolver. He got a really big break.
My friend is a retired force recon Marine, and even though he is a partial paraplegic and walks with a cane due to bouncing after a parachute failure, he'd have been hard pressed to convince a jury he needed a gun to ward off an assault from an angry fat lady. The other thing is his favor is that his neighbor's address was already red flagged due to a history of past aggressive behavior.
These are examples involving relatively "normal" gun owners. The stupid and the crazy people do an even worse job of filtering out bad ideas involving the use of firearms.
jlrhiner
US Veteran
So, the consensus of the learned is that concealed carry is a waste of time, don't do anything but hide, the Police will be there shortly, and if you do do something, you're a Rambo, mall-ninja, poser, wanna be cop who's more of a danger than a help.
Does that sum it up?
Does that sum it up?
fredj338
Member
Spoken like a True Rambo. No, your ccw is to protect you & yours. It is not a badge. You want to run to the guns, join a leo as a reserve & good luck. There are precious few things, not involving you dirctly, that go down where you know what you see is what is happening. So best to be a good witness & watch your own six.
Mainsail
Member
How many murders do you think you could witness from your hidey-hole before you did something to stop it? What if the shooter was targeting children? Would you still hold firm to your witness status? How much blood and screaming and carnage do you believe you would watch before you did something? All of it?
Throwing a personal attack at a forum member like that ("spoken like a true Rambo") isn't helpful.
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As many as it took to get me home to mine. I don’t care about saving the world. I have a responsibility to keep providing for the family that depends on me. People like you don’t get it, unless you have nobody awaiting your return home each day. Y’all have some misguided hero complex, and anybody that doesn’t share the same bravado is a coward. Get over it . . .
Rastoff
US Veteran
There are two schools of thought on this subject and they are violently opposed. One is staying away from the fight that you're not part of and the other is running in to save the day. I'm actually surprised that most on this thread are advising to move to safety rather than engaging in the fight. I've been lambasted on this forum before for suggesting that we save ourselves.
It's fun to talk about how tough you are on the internet. It's a whole different matter when the bullets are flying your direction and it's your fault that you drew said gunfire.
It's fun to talk about how tough you are on the internet. It's a whole different matter when the bullets are flying your direction and it's your fault that you drew said gunfire.
Yes, I'm sure you're very brave, but let me ask the one question that hasn't been asked in this thread; when you get to where that sound is coming from, how will you know who the bad guy is?
I wish I'd have said that.
Mainsail
Member
Bizarre, especially since I haven't stated a position, and certainly never called anyone a coward.
The only position I have espoused is that I don't have a position- and that I believe it foolish to declare you would or would not do this or that.
Get over it? Maybe after you get over whatever substance is addling your mind you'll realize I never said any of what you seem to think I have.
fredj338
Member
So are you winessing a murder or a good guy defending himself??? As i have stated before, there are precious few things you see & know exactly what is going on In That split second. Even those can be tainted by rounding the corner, answering to the screams, & seeing a man standing over a body. Who is the victim, who is the attacker???
Rambo is not a personnal attack, grow up. He used that exact phrase I just turned it around. So I will do the same for you. Can you live with yourself after shooting the wrong person, some innocent who you mistook for a bad guy with a gun? Nothing you say will get you out of that it because YOU chose to intervene without really knowing what was going on..
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fredj338
Member
Not about being tough about being smart. Sure why not if you have the skill & know 100% who the target is. Ask any leo, it is rarely 100% clear. Why there are so many wrongfull leo shootings.
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Trying not to be the usual nitpicker so often seen around these parts, but...
FL, PA and UT in particular issue tons of non resident permits, so those figures are likely not indicative if we’re talking actual residents.
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Mainsail
Member
Now you're being dishonest.
"Spoken like a true Rambo."
You certainly meant Rambo pejoratively, it's absolutely apparent in the context.
Live with myself? I haven't said what I would do, or not do.
Mainsail
Member
I hadn't thought of that, but you're right.
The percentage of out-of-state permit/license holders would be a good stat- I wonder how many people are using that "loophole".
If nothing else it demonstrates a need for national reciprocity.
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