Is THAT the active shooter?

[Muss Muggins]

Clearly we will never agree. Good luck . . .

If they are not shooting at me I will not shoot at them. So if I shoot at them when they are not, then they will likely shoot back. That doesn't seem real smart but I am not the tactical expert. BTW where did I say ignore them? Just don't shoot them unless they are a threat.

 

[Walkingwolf]

How close was the sound of gun fire ?? Was it echoing thru a mall or out side bouncing the sound off of the buildings .. many times locating the direction of the sound is very difficult !!

Doubtful I would draw immediately if the shooter wasn't in sight .. though my hand would have acquired the butt for quickly drawing if needed .. would CAREFULLY move toward an exit or out of the area with my family ..
I would never move toward the sound of gunfire !!

I think it was last year, maybe the year before. People rushed for the doors at Crab Tree Mall in Raleigh in what they believed was an active shooter. One person was seen drawing his weapon. The source of the gun fire? Someone kicked a vending machine hard out of frustration, in the mall some confused it for gunfire. Again I repeat it is not very intelligent to shoot when there is no clear threat. I repeat though I am no tactical expert, or play one on youtube. I did stay in a Red Roof Inn last August though.

 

[Rastoff]

I suppose one could look for the person or persons that are shooting at fleeing, unarmed people.

And while running toward the sounds and looking, you are another person running with a firearm who could be confused as someone that needs to be shot by yet another well meaning citizen.

We all need to agree to disagree . . .

I disagree. Then again, I am very disagreeable.

 

[Muss Muggins]

I disagree. Then again, I am very disagreeable.

So we agree . . .

 

[Muss Muggins]

I would have stayed with my family and left . . .

 

[oink]

I won't draw much less fire my weapon without a deadly threat. That's just basic. And no I didn't stay at a Holiday Inn Express. I'm no tactical expert. Yes, I have had some tactical training including several sessions of active shooter training over several years, although not near enough. However, in an active shooter situation, if I'm not busy protecting loved ones, and until such time as adequate Law Enforcement is on the scene, I will advance toward the shooting. Yes there is risk from multiple avenues. Yes there are idiots with CCWs. While still on the job I revoked several from otherwise good intentioned people that demonstrated they didn't have the good judgement to have one. Without arresting them. (Take permit and mail it to the Dept of Ag. along with an incident report describing the situation. I always included PC demonstrating that a charge was technically feasible.) I never had any blowback. Maybe I was lucky. Of course I was pretty fair at documenting on paper. Point being, despite risks, as long as I'm able I will not abandon my fellow citizens, especially children, in their time of need, that is once my family is safe. No I'm not getting paid for that anymore. Call me crazy, mall ninja or whatever you want. I see it as my civic duty.

That was essentially what I posted a good bit earlier. With so many repeatedly advocating the opposite opinion I thought it was worth re-emphasizing the point.

 

[JJEH]

There's two sides to the event. One, what does the law say and two, what would you as an individual do?

As a civilian you have no duty to respond. So no one can hold it against you if you grab your loved ones and run towards safety.

As a sworn peace officer you have a duty to respond, I don't have to explain this any further. Draw your gun, direct your family to safety, put your badge in a visible spot, call 911 (or let a family member call if they are level headed) and go to work.

If you respond as an armed civilian you need to understand that you can be mistaken for the bad guy. When police approaches you, you BETTER comply with everything. It's better to seek cover, call 911 and describe the situation as well as yourself so arriving police can identify you. In any way they'll be suspicious if you have a gun drawn because who doesn't say you are the bad guy and called them so you can ambush them or carry out other heinous crimes?!

It's not easy and if police doesn't know you it can become problematic. Maybe not in small towns but major cities I can see stuff hitting the fan if you engage as an armed civilian in a mall or other big event. I mean if the threat is right next to you yes, please do something. But if you are not sure where it comes from please don't overreact and draw your gun just to go looking. This can backfire big time. No pun intended.

 

[aphelion]

So, I ask again, when you get to the place where the sounds are coming from, how do you distinguish the bad guy?

I suppose one could look for the person or persons that are shooting at fleeing, unarmed people.

And while running toward the sounds and looking, you are another person running with a firearm who could be confused as someone that needs to be shot by yet another well meaning citizen.

I agree running toward the sound of shots with a drawn pistol would be unwise, so didn't recommend it. The comment was about the supposed difficulty of determining who is the bad guy. It appears to me from reading accounts of mass shootings, it wouldn't be that difficult to discern who was the shooter(s) by simply observing the behavior I described (shooting into groups of fleeing, screaming people). I'd say the victims probably weren't having trouble figuring it out either.

 

[Walkingwolf]

Another point is that once a threat is stopped, don't stand around with a gun in hand. Usually in most active shootings the police don't arrive for at least a couple minutes. It only takes a couple seconds to stop the threat, plenty of time to put the gun back in the holster before police arrive.

Now for myself I am not that much concerned. I have a battle plan that has worked for decades. Don't go stupid places, don't do stupid things, and mind my own business while paying attention.

 

[touchoneoff]

Seriously, I guess I'll have to cross that bridge when I get to it. I'm not in the Marines anymore, nor am I a cop, so charging to the sound of the gunfire is not necessarily my top priority...guess I would be kinda worried that I would be making the waters more "muddy", when the police showed up.

I would probably have gun in hand, be taking cover, and be ready if some clown came my way sending rounds downrange...in my direction.

 

[fredj338]

It frankly sickens me that some here keep saying they should have moved away from the shots.

In a mall full of innocents, children, babies, there were armed responsible heroes ready to take up arms against those that would slaughter them.

So sad to see some would run and cower and hide instead of help their fellow sheepdogs take down the attackers.

Isn’t one of our greatest arguments for gun rights and CCW rights especially is that they offer a means to reduce deaths from active shooters? Not saying people should sacrifice themselves needlessly, but if in such a situation an armed citizen can make a difference, I don’t think it’s right to claim they should just run like a scared Bambi deer instead of saving perhaps countless lives.

My $0.02.

Saving lives or taking innocent lives? Again, very, very few times will you know exactly what you see is what is happening. So you run to the gun shots, turn the corner & bodies everywhere, one guy standing with the gun. You shoot him, stupidly issue a challenge, what? What do you know vs what do you see?
No, your ccw is not a "sheepdog" license. Not without a ton of training, skill & a huge amount of luck should you be engaging in a fight that is NOT directed at you. Its not cowardice, its just smart.
You are in a mall & actually witness someone shooting women & children, one of those rare 100% I know what I see is what is happening. Then it is your decision but are you good enough? the avg ccw is not.

 

[Protected One]

It's no surprise that the mindset of those with law enforcement backgrounds - active or retired, is different from that of the average civilian, and for this I am grateful.

Yet the question was - How would you, as an armed person, avoid being mistaken for the "active shooter" by the many other armed people with guns drawn? In my opinion, so many potential scenarios make it impossible to prepare for them all, and even those of us who take all manner of training classes have yet to experience the real thing, and thus can't be certain how we would actually respond.

Like many of you who have a few years under our belt, we have had experiences that show us if we're the type of person that tends to wilt under pressure, or maintains our cool. I am the later. If I were to find myself in a mall or similar public place when the sound of nearby gunfire rang out the only person likely to be with me is my wife. Assuming no quick exit were available I would seek good cover for us - preferably alone. I would call 911 and report the situation, along with our description and location, then I would keep an eye on any line of sight to our location. Should anyone appear who presented a threat to us, THAT is the point at which the gun that my hand has been gripping would be unholstered. By minimizing the number of people I am around and keeping my weapon holstered until needed, that "should" remove the likelihood of me being accidentally shot. However....if the active shooter were to somehow pass me by without detecting my presence and was still shooting people I think I would use that advantage to try and put an end to it. I don't think I could live with myself otherwise.

 

[oink]

I realize there is really not much equivalency and there have been questions about the accuracy of the original reporting but some of the posts in this thread jarred my memory causing it to bring up this old old incident: Murder of Kitty Genovese (Wikipedia version) Murder of Kitty Genovese - Wikipedia

 

[nachogrande]

THAT (OLD) CHESTNUT AGAIN?

I realize there is really not much equivalency and there have been questions about the accuracy of the original reporting but some of the posts in this thread jarred my memory causing it to bring up this old old incident: Murder of Kitty Genovese (Wikipedia version) Murder of Kitty Genovese - Wikipedia

LONG AGO, FAR AWAY, a completely different set of circumstances. As apples to oranges as they get. If you think it hasn't/doesn't happen in anytown USA OFTEN, I'd say you are sadly mistaken. Lot's of things remind me of other things, so all due respect, but not relevant in this case, IMO.

 

[BAM-BAM]

Saving lives or taking innocent lives? Again, very, very few times will you know exactly what you see is what is happening.

Say you run to the gun shots, turn the corner & bodies everywhere, one guy standing with the gun. [looking right at you as you come around the corner].

You shoot him, stupidly issue a challenge, what? What do you know vs what do you see?

No, your ccw is not a "sheepdog" license. Not without a ton of training, skill & a huge amount of luck should you be engaging in a fight that is NOT directed at you.

Its not cowardice, its just smart.
.

Take the example above........ is that the shooter looking for another target ...... or another "Sheepdog" that got there before you and the ''Shooter" is one of the bodies on the ground???????

You have at best 1/2 second to make your "shoot no shoot" decision.

If you took the time to read the sentence above you may be dead now!!!!

Cus it was the shooter...................

or another armed civilian was faster and mistook you for a second active shooter

Or maybe you just killed a father of 2 with some training and has had a carry permit for the last 40 years; who was "right there" when the shooting started........ aka "Me"

Or maybe you just became a hero and killed the shooter!!!!!

Or maybe a responding Police Officer with his patrol rifle is 40 yards behind you and sees you raising your gun on a guy 10 yards beyond you; but you are blocking his view, and he can't see that the other guy also has a gun...... so you get two 5.56 rounds between the shoulder blades!

Odd are one out of five ...........which is correct????....... I don't know the answer from the info above ....... do you???????

 

[oink]

It's certainly less risky to remain uninvolved.

 

[BAM-BAM]

It's certainly less risky to remain uninvolved.

........... What's the phrase I'm looking for ...."Do you have actionable intelligence"????? or like Gettysburg; just marching to the sounds of distant cannon!!!!!

Neither side was looking for, or prepared to do, battle outside that little Pennsylvania town; that not many involved had ever even heard of ......... but we all know how the latter ended!!

 

[oink]

OK, Anzio.

 

[Muss Muggins]

I’ve decided that active shooter threads are like open carry, round in chamber or not, safety or no, internal lock, and bear caliber threads, and should be treated accordingly. . .

 

[Walkingwolf]

I realize there is really not much equivalency and there have been questions about the accuracy of the original reporting but some of the posts in this thread jarred my memory causing it to bring up this old old incident: Murder of Kitty Genovese (Wikipedia version) Murder of Kitty Genovese - Wikipedia

If I counted on strangers, whether police, or citizens for my families, and my safety I would not carry a firearm. The courts continue to rule that police have no duty to protect, and citizens tend to not get involved in major cities. It is a shame she did not have the tools to possibly save her own life.

The truth is her life was over the second the attack started. Multiple stabbing attacks are almost always fatal, the citizens could have reported it, but unless armed unlikely to stop it.

I can somewhat understand their not wanting to be a witness. Criminals are given pass, after pass who commit violent crimes, and they fear becoming a target themselves.