Ziggy2525
Member
- Joined
- Jan 10, 2016
- Messages
- 1,530
- Reaction score
- 3,249
For OWB, I found the Bianchi Cyclone 111 works well for J-Frame cross draw.
Is the .380 enough?
- Thread starter Ole Joe Clark
- Start date
Highhawk1948
Member
Shoot them in the face or the groin.
Dutchboy901
Member
- Joined
- Aug 8, 2018
- Messages
- 98
- Reaction score
- 113
OK, I've said it before and I'll say it again! A 380 will do the job! In my almost 30 years as a LEO, I've seen a few shootings, actual & after the fact. Most crooks & people for that matter don't give a rats *** what caliber your using! They just don't want to be shot or confronted with a gun, period! Pull out a gun and I guarantee you ain't nobody gonna ask you "what caliber is that"?
I've seen more so called "mouse guns", i.e. 22, 25, 32 cal. pistols clear out more street corners, bars, house parties, community centers & gymnasiums, than the law allows! And I've yet to find anyone who is willing to take a hit with any of these calibers, let alone a 380!
I carry a 380 often and have no problems doing so!
I've seen more so called "mouse guns", i.e. 22, 25, 32 cal. pistols clear out more street corners, bars, house parties, community centers & gymnasiums, than the law allows! And I've yet to find anyone who is willing to take a hit with any of these calibers, let alone a 380!
I carry a 380 often and have no problems doing so!
Last edited:
The question is not whether someone is willing to get shot with anything. People don't even want to be shot with a pellet gun. That is a straw man argument and weak defense of a caliber.
The question is whether .380acp is "enough". In most cases it probably is but not in every case and it just may be the latter that gets you killed someday.
We have videos of all these perps being shot with more powerful calibers multiple times and they don't go down right away. We have more and more cases of adrenaline junkies who don't care if they have a gun in their face, are being shot and are trying to fight with the police and take their guns. The perp may end up dying later after being shot with a .380 but that won't be of any worth to you if he maims or kills you first. I wouldn't want to be facing one of these types with a little pocket .380. In fact, even a 9mm or better handgun caliber may not stop the threat fast enough.
As people become more and more crazy, drugged up and more vile in general asking the question whether .380acp is good enough is not an unreasonable one. I think the .380 is fine to throw in your pocket for a trip to the gas station or as a BUG but I wouldn't want to limit myself to a .380 on a routine basis.
Last edited:
Dutchboy901
Member
- Joined
- Aug 8, 2018
- Messages
- 98
- Reaction score
- 113
GoodSam, I certainly understand your point and for that matter, no handgun caliber is a true man-stopper! Moreover, I never thought that asking the question of whether 380acp is good enough was an unreasonable question. Any gun Sir, or caliber is better than no gun!
My response was based on my years of street experience as a Cop, in particular a U/C narcotics Officer in the beautiful safe streets of Camden City, NJ. You are correct in that, a "Cracked out or dusted up junkie" may not drop or fall, short of being run over by a car or truck. My response was based on dealing with your average street offender or thug in the hood, looking to get over so to say.
Most thugs and I'll repeat it, most thugs do not want to be shot...period! They want to "get over" and do their dirt as quickly & easily as they possibly can! In most cases, when you pull out a gun, any gun, most folks including thugs, will either freeze and stop dead in their tracks or run like they've never run before and could care less what caliber your using! That to me Sir, is one of the intended purposes of a gun regardless of caliber!
As far as that adrenaline crazed junkie is concern, your just gonna have to run his *** over or hope that you get a one shot heart stopper!
My response was based on my years of street experience as a Cop, in particular a U/C narcotics Officer in the beautiful safe streets of Camden City, NJ. You are correct in that, a "Cracked out or dusted up junkie" may not drop or fall, short of being run over by a car or truck. My response was based on dealing with your average street offender or thug in the hood, looking to get over so to say.
Most thugs and I'll repeat it, most thugs do not want to be shot...period! They want to "get over" and do their dirt as quickly & easily as they possibly can! In most cases, when you pull out a gun, any gun, most folks including thugs, will either freeze and stop dead in their tracks or run like they've never run before and could care less what caliber your using! That to me Sir, is one of the intended purposes of a gun regardless of caliber!
As far as that adrenaline crazed junkie is concern, your just gonna have to run his *** over or hope that you get a one shot heart stopper!
Last edited:
Dutchboy901
Member
- Joined
- Aug 8, 2018
- Messages
- 98
- Reaction score
- 113
GoodSam, If I may Sir. One of the things I am trying to point out is that there is a tremendous psychological effect to being confronted with a gun and in most cases it has absolutely nothing to do with caliber!
That's why I noted in previous post that most folks could care less what caliber your using. You've got a gun "The Great Equalizer", which will give most folks a "moment of pause"! I've seen it happen!
The fact that you can pull out a gun, (regardless of caliber), gives you the advantage or upper hand in most cases which is a lot more than what most people on the street can do!
That's why I noted in previous post that most folks could care less what caliber your using. You've got a gun "The Great Equalizer", which will give most folks a "moment of pause"! I've seen it happen!
The fact that you can pull out a gun, (regardless of caliber), gives you the advantage or upper hand in most cases which is a lot more than what most people on the street can do!
Last edited:
joeintexas
US Veteran
I always figure in a self defense situation I might get just one shot at stopping the threat, and I really doubt I will have time to take the perfect shot. If all I had was a 380 I suppose I would be glad I had it, but really I feel better in my mind with something that starts with a 4. Not saying I don't carry a 9mm on occasion but I do prefer a .40 or .45. And no, I wouldn't want shot with even a BB gun either. Who would?
Echo40
Member
- Joined
- Sep 25, 2017
- Messages
- 4,064
- Reaction score
- 7,904
@Good Sam, I'm not sure that you're in any position to be calling the actual, first-hand experience of a former LEO a "strawman" especially not after using a textbook example of a strawman argument like, "If .380acp were enough then our military and LEO's would be using it."
Honestly, as if these caliber debates weren't already filled with enough folks who make arguments based on preconceived notions, second-hand anecdotal evidence, and even outright conjecture. It gets downright embarrassing once folks start arguing against those who can actually back up their statements with accounts of their own personal experience based on years of service in the Military/Law Enforcement. So please, unless you actually have your own personal experiences with which to counter the statements of a trained professional whose experience with firearms goes beyond hearsay on the internet, just stop.
Seriously, it's one thing to personally distrust a particular cartridge and/or just feel more confident carrying something more powerful, but to go so far as to assert its arbitrary inferiority, especially once someone with actual first-hand experience to the contrary of said assertions, you're only making a fool of yourself.
Honestly, as if these caliber debates weren't already filled with enough folks who make arguments based on preconceived notions, second-hand anecdotal evidence, and even outright conjecture. It gets downright embarrassing once folks start arguing against those who can actually back up their statements with accounts of their own personal experience based on years of service in the Military/Law Enforcement. So please, unless you actually have your own personal experiences with which to counter the statements of a trained professional whose experience with firearms goes beyond hearsay on the internet, just stop.
Seriously, it's one thing to personally distrust a particular cartridge and/or just feel more confident carrying something more powerful, but to go so far as to assert its arbitrary inferiority, especially once someone with actual first-hand experience to the contrary of said assertions, you're only making a fool of yourself.
TomkinsSP
Member
Luftwaffe officers were issued 9 Kurz (.380), lots of European police and military officers were issued 7.65 Browning (.32 acp).
Dutchboy901
Member
- Joined
- Aug 8, 2018
- Messages
- 98
- Reaction score
- 113
I am truly amazed at the mindset of people when it comes to caliber debate. People for some reason tend to focus on caliber size, i.e. 40, 44, 45, 357, 1911, Colt Python, Desert Eagle, etc. which are all fine calibers and guns and will in fact do the job, unless of course you are a crackhead or drugged up!
If you are the BG, crook, aggressor or what ever you want to call it, being confronted with a gun is going to change the dynamic of that encounter. In most cases, the BG is going to transition from an offensive posture or position to a defensive position due to the fact that you the victim now have equalized the situation or playing field with a gun. And I can assure you that the BG ain't thinking about what caliber your using, he now knows that you have a gun equal to what he has! His mindset is gun, not caliber!
Most BG's are banking on the fact that the average person is unarmed and has no defensive weapons equal to their gun or what they have which puts them at an advantage.
Ill say it again, the fact that you can pull out a gun, (regardless of caliber), gives you the advantage or upper hand in most cases which is a lot more than what most people on the street can do! And most crooks are not banking on you being armed!
I'll end my argument with carry a gun, whatever you have, regardless of it's caliber!
If you are the BG, crook, aggressor or what ever you want to call it, being confronted with a gun is going to change the dynamic of that encounter. In most cases, the BG is going to transition from an offensive posture or position to a defensive position due to the fact that you the victim now have equalized the situation or playing field with a gun. And I can assure you that the BG ain't thinking about what caliber your using, he now knows that you have a gun equal to what he has! His mindset is gun, not caliber!
Most BG's are banking on the fact that the average person is unarmed and has no defensive weapons equal to their gun or what they have which puts them at an advantage.
Ill say it again, the fact that you can pull out a gun, (regardless of caliber), gives you the advantage or upper hand in most cases which is a lot more than what most people on the street can do! And most crooks are not banking on you being armed!
I'll end my argument with carry a gun, whatever you have, regardless of it's caliber!
Last edited:
vigil617
US Veteran
Joe, I understand your argument, and certainly the larger the caliber, the better the chance a single shot would successfully defend you. If you "might" only get one shot, choosing a larger caliber makes sense. But here's where I begin to disagree with you, just a little. When I train, I try to put multiple shots into a small area as quickly as possible. In other words, in the extremely unlikely event I, as a civilian who doesn't seek out dangerous places or situations, would need to shoot in self-defense in the first place, I have to plan to make that self-defense as lethal as possible. I'm not going to shoot otherwise. I think my odds of only getting one shot are not very high, because if I can get one off, I can get two, three, four, five, six, or seven the way I plan to be pulling the trigger. I have to plan to shoot until the threat is stopped. So I think the .380 I carry and the ammo I choose are reasonable choices, and .380 is, to answer the OP's question, "enough." So is anything larger, and maybe even a couple of the smaller ones. I'm limited by the size of what I pocket carry; otherwise, I could holster carry something larger and more uncomfortable, but I certainly don't fault anyone who chooses bigger and can carry it effectively.
Some are trying awfully hard to convince others that the 380 is enough. And yet others that argue against it.
Why bother? Do you really think you're going to change anyone's mind? What do you care what caliber someone carries?
Each of us need to work out our own salvation. And live or die by it.
Why bother? Do you really think you're going to change anyone's mind? What do you care what caliber someone carries?
Each of us need to work out our own salvation. And live or die by it.
Dutchboy901
Member
- Joined
- Aug 8, 2018
- Messages
- 98
- Reaction score
- 113
Well said Kanewpadle, well said!
Funny, the actual LEO whose comments I replied to that offended you so much was far more civil and more in agreement with me then you are. He didn't order me to "stop posting" like you did.
And how, pray tell, do you presume to know how experienced I am or expect someone newer to the forum to assume that everyone here, people with fake names who they don't know personally are all bonafied experts, Mr. Dirty Harry Callahan? Simply being an LEO doesn't make one an automatic expert in everything although I've no doubt that some here are very knowledgeable and I do have the utmost respect for them.
And why should we just discard years of research and knowledge by the real experts, guys with real names like Massad Ayoob and police and military organizations with unlimited budgets in favor of unknown guys on forums who are now telling everyone that it doesn't really matter, ANY gun or caliber is just fine?
Times change and people change. The thugs are getting more and more emboldened, vicious and crazy. The old guns that used to work against them aren't working as well anymore and the bad guys are armed to the teeth, that's why the military/police are using high-cap full and compact sized semi-autos and only carry J-Frames and/or .380's as BUGs if they're even allowed to carry .380's at all (many are not).
The facts are that serious organizations like the military and police don't carry or issue .380's. Most long time experts like Mas Ayoob don't have much use for the .380 either or, at best, regard it as the absolute bare minimum for a defensive caliber. There are reasons for this. It's not a matter of opinion but of science based on reliability and real world usage. This isn't a joke. We are not talking about cars or audio equipment here. Peoples lives may be on the line. I think it's a bit dishonest to suggest to everyone that the .380 by itself is just fine when in fact, it may not be the best or smartest choice for everyone.
Last edited:
smoothshooter
Member
Sometimes department weapons policy is influenced by, for example, the lower cost and higher variety of choices to be had in 9mm ammo and guns compared to .380 ACP.
Politics, and ignorance about firearms and ammo by administrators can come into play as well.
Last edited:
I can generally agree with that statement but there has never been one time in history, at least here in America, where our LEO or military used or were issued .380's. It's possible it may have seen limited issue for airline pilots or something oddball like that but this would be a rare exception. It did see widespread use in European and other countries but their populace were largely unarmed and no where near as vicious as American thugs.
The .380acp has been around since before the 1911 came along yet in all that time our military/police are still not issuing it to this day. This fact cannot be ignored and it begs the question "why?"
Fortunately, it is no mystery to those who work in those fields and have done the research and studies. It's only a mystery to civilians on gun forums who either can't or won't carry something larger or spend more money on a bigger and better gun.
Last edited:
What you continue to fail to understand is that caliber selection is a personal choice. It may not matter what cops or the military use.
Opinions about caliber whether or not they are so called expert opinions are just that. Only a fool selects a caliber solely based on someone else's opinion.
To continue on your soap box is a waste of time.
Of course I understand that it's a personal choice. It's all about the individual in America, I get it. "It's what works for me" is the mantra of every arm chair forum commando who never actually had to use their guns in combat or self defense. But there are others who have and they have something to teach us. I choose to listen to them and most don't have any high praise for the .380.
You say only a fool selects a caliber based on someone else's opinion? How so? Do you think that ballistics is all a matter of opinion? You think that someone basing their ammo choice in order to best save their lives and/or the lives of their loved ones on what experts in the field are recommending and using is a fool? Are you serious?
And it most certainly does matter what our military and law enforcement are using because most of them don't have a "personal choice" in the matter. They have guidelines to follow and have to carry the approved guns/ammo which, coincidentally are not .380's. There is a reason for this and it isn't budget constraints or a lack of knowledge about firearms from higher ups, it's because they just don't work all that well and/or are not as reliable as other, more larger calibers. This is not a matter of opinion but of ballistics, science and street/battlefield credibility.
Last edited:
Similar threads
- Locked
